Nobis vita mori, vivere pena datur.

[Godmy]

(Also "Marcum vivum esse videtur" where the nominative is unspecified unmentioned "id" (id videtur))
- It is indeed similar to the infinitive in nom+inf construction s which can be omitted....

As for ut, which one is grammatically correct or both? (acc. or nom.?)

Iulia Marcum ut vivum videt
Iulia Marcum ut vivus videt

No that (hypothetical unwritten) "ut" would be if you had a noun and a pronoun or two nouns, not needed for a noun with an adjective, never for two clauses like this (that would mean something else and most probably a subjunctive would be required)... Forget those constructions you made as the last ones, that's something else.

I saw Romulus, when he was a king = Romulum regem aspexi (Romulum and regem share cases, therefore they have the "as" relation)
I saw Romlus when I was a child = Romulum infans aspexi (infans - nominative; ego (in the first person "aspexi") is also a nominative)

We talk about some deaf "essens"(being) or "as(ut)" which is never written we only treat it like it was there... sorry, I'm tired to death now.

 

[Deleted member 13757]

I saw Romulus, when he was a king = Romulum regem aspexi (Romulum and regem share cases, therefore they have the "as" relation)
I saw Romlus when I was a child = Romulum infans aspexi (infans - nominative; ego (in the first person "aspexi") is also a nominative)

Augustum infans vidi <- Agustum [ego] infans [essens] vidi (I saw him myself being a child... )
Whereas: Augustum infantem vidi <- I saw him himself being a child(when he was a child)

Thank you. I understand the short/implied forms better now.

-

The implied acc. + intf of present is very very clear in my head. Can you help me with time please.

Romulum infantem aspexi. I saw him being a child with a meaning like "I think he is a child now"
So then there is not much of difference between Romulum infatem fuisse apsexi?
Then what about with abl. abs. Romulum infante aspexi.

-

Romulum infans aspexi. Ok I got it. So the gramaticaly correct long form of this would be: Dum ego ipse infans fui/essem eum aspexi.


Thans

 

[Acsacal]

I would translate very simply as more or less found by other forum members:

• nobis=> to us
• vita => by life
• mori => dying = the death (subject of datur)
• vita=> life
• pena=> by pain (subject of datur)
• datur=> is given

i.e. we are given death by life, life by pain.
The only remark about previous explanation attempts : there is no *datur esse in Latin, you must choose between present datur and perfect datus, a, um esse !

 

[Kosmokrator]

vita is nominative (as well as pena, can't be by life) so more or less not looking at the context "To us life is given to die (as death) and to live is given as pain"

life sux in other words ... as this pentameter does.

i wonder if it may also be an exhortation to take arms ... don't have time to look closely though.

 

[Pacifica]

I would translate very simply as more or less found by other forum members:

• nobis=> to us
• vita => by life
• mori => dying = the death (subject of datur)
• vita=> life
• pena=> by pain (subject of datur)
• datur=> is given

i.e. we are given death by life, life by pain.
The only remark about previous explanation attempts : there is no *datur esse in Latin, you must choose between present datur and perfect datus, a, um esse !

Acsacal, this was my interpretation too, before I knew they were nominative. And I think datur esse can exist like dicitur esse for ex.
Ille dicitur esse vir magnus...
Mori datur esse vita...

I wasn't saying datur esse was a tense, he!

i wonder if it may also be an exhortation to take arms ...

Yes it is.

Just to clarify what Godmy explained about ut/as implied: it is when it means "as" as in "as he is/was", not "as" as "like". Volat ut avis (he flies as/like a bird) can't be said without ut of course, volat avis just means "the bird flies" and nothing else. Actually in Augustum infantem vidi, if you have to imply something (personally thus far I didn't think to imply anything, I just saw infantem as an apposition) I think it's better to imply essens rather than ut.

 

[malleolus]

Sorry if I appear somewhat confused
It's life is given us to die and to live is given us as punishment , isn't it ? Sorry but somehow I got lost amid all the posts.

 

[Pacifica]

Yes, literally: To us to die (is given as being) life, to live is given (as being) a punishment.

Nobis vita (esse) mori (datur), vivere (esse) pena datur.

 

[Bitmap]

I think Kosmokrator is pretty right in his assessment that this pentametre sucks

 

[Pacifica]

Maybe, how could I know as I don't know sh** about meter...

Actually, why is this called pentametre? The number of syllables isn't a multiple of five... And how is this supposed to work more or less? Like how many heavy syllables and how many light ones, in what order?

Nóbis víta mori, vívere péna datur... Heavy, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy... It seems like it's each time two lights for one heavy, except in the beginning where there are two heavy ones. If I'm not completely mistaking as I'm not specialist of vowel quantity either at all.

Ah, maybe it's called a pentametre because it's divided into groups of three syllables (light, light, heavy) + only the first two heavy syllables which don't fit the pattern. 3+2= 5...
This is just a complete guess, please don't laugh to much at me if I'm completely off the point ...

 

[Imber Ranae]

It's dactylic rather than iambic. See this thread for an explanation.

 

[Acsacal]

Maybe, how could I know as I don't know sh** about meter...

Actually, why is this called pentametre? The number of syllables isn't a multiple of five... And how is this supposed to work more or less? Like how many heavy syllables and how many light ones, in what order?

Nóbis víta mori, vívere péna datur... Heavy, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy... It seems like it's each time two lights for one heavy, except in the beginning where there are two heavy ones. If I'm not completely mistaking as I'm not specialist of vowel quantity either at all.

Ah, maybe it's called a pentametre because it's divided into groups of three syllables (light, light, heavy) + only the first two heavy syllables which don't fit the pattern. 3+2= 5...
This is just a complete guess, please don't laugh to much at me if I'm completely off the point ...

Actually there are two types of Latin poetry.

• In classical Latin poetry verses are a combination of feet, themselves a combination of long and short non elided syllabs. Roughly speaking long syllabs are those containing a long vowel, or containing a diphthong, or followed by two consonnants, short syllabs the other ones. There is no concept of rime.
• Eventually, when the length of vowels was no longer perceived by Latin speakers, a new style of poetry was invented, similar to the present English or German ones and with feet based on a combination of strssed and unstressed syllabs.

You can find explanations on Latin poetry in the beginning of the boocklet "Cornélie ou le latin sans pleurs."

 

[malleolus]

To us life is given in order to die (definitely Senecan if you compare it to cottidie morimur ), to live is given as punishment.
Nobis vita (esse) mori (datur), vivere (esse) pena datur.
Sorry again , but why add esse ?
It really won't make any difference , since you are done with the translation , but as there are several examples in the whole lot of the Liber where infinitives are used instead of gerunds (i.e. mori instead of ad moriendum) I don't really see the need to add esse.

 

[Kosmokrator]

To us life is given in order to die (definitely Senecan if you compare it to cottidie morimur ), to live is given as punishment.
Nobis vita (esse) mori (datur), vivere (esse) pena datur.
Sorry again , but why add esse ?
It really won't make any difference , since you are done with the translation , but as there are several examples in the whole lot of the Liber where infinitives are used instead of gerunds (i.e. mori instead of ad moriendum) I don't really see the need to add esse.

There is no need to add a esse here (mori is equal to mors) neither to take mori as ad moriendum; "to us dying is given as life while to live is given as a punishment (or pain)" it's an exhortation to take arms.

 

[Pacifica]

To us life is given in order to die (definitely Senecan if you compare it to cottidie morimur ), to live is given as punishment.

Then, either vivere should also be an infinitive of purpose, and the second part would be "punishment is given in order to live", or esse must still be implied in the second part.

I really didn't think of an infinitive of purpose, though - neither did anyone else before you, now - I guess that's because I'm not very familiar with the phenomenon. But it makes sense.

but as there are several examples in the whole lot of the Liber

You've read it?

 

[Kosmokrator]

infinitive mori expresses mors (a name, death)

in it. il morir per noi è vita (as in greek, italian, in english you use dying i think)

 

[Pacifica]

Ok but still, I think you have to imply something like esse, for vita and mori, two nominatives, can't both be subjects of datur, they need a link of some kind, no? Otherwise one of them should be in dat.

Kosmokrator, I read the notes in Italian in the book and, even though I don't know Italian, having French as a mother tongue and knowing some Latin and Spanish I manage to understand maybe 1/4 of them; but there's something that comes back all the time: what does "su rasura" means?

 

[Kosmokrator]

rasura = emendation (written on emendation)

it's a latinism

Ok but still, I think you have to imply something like esse, for vita and mori, two nominatives, can't both be subjects of datur, they need a link of some kind, no? Otherwise one of them should be in dat.

Kosmokrator, I read the notes in Italian in the book and, even though I don't know Italian, having French as a mother tongue and knowing some Latin and Spanish I manage to understand maybe 1/4 of them; but there's something that comes back all the time: what does "su rasura" means?

i dont know how to say it in english ... consider mori as death and you will understand what i mean

 

[Pacifica]

Like an apposition?

 

[Kosmokrator]

yes

 

[Pacifica]

An apposition in this context seems weird to me, I didn't know it could be used that way. But you may be right I don't know everything.