Bone Deus, Carrane erit ne aliquando finis mendaciorum & calumniarum

[Imber Ranae]

An appositive not matching the case of its antecedent would be rather non-standard as far as Latin grammar goes. Maybe it's possible in the period of this text, but I'm somewhat doubtful because the rest of the grammar seems pretty standard otherwise.

 

[Bruodinus]

Thank you both very much for your efforts in this. It reads well and is clear!
Most impressed!

 

[Imperfacundus]

You're welcome!

the rest of the grammar seems pretty standard otherwise.

That is a good point
Perhaps the second comma was in error

 

[Imber Ranae]

Thank you both very much for your efforts in this. It reads well and is clear!
Most impressed!

To be honest, it's still not all that well and clear to me. It would be interesting to know more of the historical context, as it would surely help us to tease apart some of the loose strings (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor) of the translation. The idea of Carranus using cow manure as plaster is intriguing, and I wonder what exactly his relation was to the writer and to the MacBrodies (if that is indeed the proper translation of Bruodini).

I'm hoping someone else like Aurifex or Pacis puella might have some further ideas on the precise meaning of some of the weirder bits.

 

[Bruodinus]

Yes the translation is McBrody. Carranus' real name was Thomas Carve and he wrote a book that was disparaging toward previous remarks made by Bruodinus, including remarks about the sort of buildings which were then in use by his family. So they were in contention with each other - hence the nasty comments!

 

[Pacifica]

I'm hoping someone else like Aurifex or Pacis puella might have some further ideas on the precise meaning of some of the weirder bits.

I'm sorry but I don't have many more ideas about what transtraque e navibus furaris, ut ope tuae falcis a Bruodinis Mandras construas really means. Even grammatically I'm not sure how a Bruodinis fits. My feeling is that it should modify construas rather than falcis, but...

For the rest your translation looks ok to me.

Edit: Except, shouldn't it be "houses" rather than "shrines"?

 

[Imber Ranae]

Edit: Except, shouldn't it be "houses" rather than "shrines"?

Do you think that makes better sense in the context? I figured he was talking about medieval Catholic shrines (like reliquaries and such) because of the mention of clergymen frequenting them.

 

[Pacifica]

Do you think that makes better sense in the context? I figured he was talking about medieval Catholic shrines (like reliquaries and such) because of the mention of clergymen frequenting them.

Clergymen aren't the only ones mentioned, but all kind of important people. But I'm not sure actually.

 

[Bruodinus]

Yes I am confused on this point - I assumed he meant 'houses' as that would link back to what he was previously saying and throwing scorn on Thomas Carve's view of what he had previously written about the types of dwellings in Thomond.

Earlier in the text it also states: ut legitur in Bruodinorum Chronicis, & refert Milerus Juvenis mac Bruodin, seu de Bruodino, in Elogijs O Brienoram.

I translate this as:

'as we read and is reported in the Bruodin chronicles by Milerus the younger Mac Bruodin, otherwise the Bruodin, and eulogist of O’Brien'

Happy for any corrections/comments to my translation above.

 

[Aurifex]

Earlier in the text it also states: ut legitur in Bruodinorum Chronicis, & refert Milerus Juvenis mac Bruodin, seu de Bruodino, in Elogijs O Brienoram.

I translate this as:

'as we read and is reported in the Bruodin chronicles by Milerus the younger Mac Bruodin, otherwise the Bruodin, and eulogist of O’Brien'

Happy for any corrections/comments to my translation above.

I'd suggest something like: "as can be read in the Chronicles of the Bruodins, and as young Miller MacBruodin, or son of Bruodin, mentions in the sayings/inscriptions/epitaphs of the O'Briens." This is assuming the reading is Elogiis and not Eulogiis. Without more context it's difficult to say how best to translate Elogiis.

 

[Bruodinus]

Hello ,
many thanks for that Aurifex. It's a good translation.
Just two points. I am not sure about the translation 'or the son of'.... To me, sue de Bruodino, refers to his holding of family title, 'otherwise/or the [Mac] Bruodin'. Or to say it in a long-winded way, 'otherwise the head of the [Mac]Bruodin family. What do you think?

My other points concerns Elogijs (this is the spelling). In the text it is used many times to mean either poet or eulogist. This makes perfect sense in the context, as the McBrodin were a family of poets whose chief patrons were the O'Briens. But I can see also your reading of this for Elogijs ......does anyone else have a view on this?

 

[Pacifica]

Miller MacBruodin, or son of Bruodin

I don't think filius is implied but I rather think that sive de Bruodino just indicates the Latin variant of the name McBruodin. "MacBruodin or (in Latin) de Bruodino".

My other points concerns Elogijs (this is the spelling). In the text it is used many times to mean either poet or eulogist. This makes perfect sense in the context, as the McBrodin were a family of poets whose chief patrons were the O'Briens. But I can see also your reading of this for Elogijs ......does anyone else have a view on this?

I don't thing e(u)logium can mean "poet" or "eulogist".

 

[Bruodinus]

thank you - good points! And thanks for coming into the debate

ok so how about this then:

....'as can be read in the Chronicles of the Bruodins, and as young Milerus MacBruodin, the [Mac]Broudin, mentions in the eulogies of O’Brien’....

I am still not sure if it is saying that it is 'mentioned' in the eulogies/epitaphs though. Any other views on the word refert and how it should be read in this context?

 

[Pacifica]

the [Mac]Broudin

There's no "the", but there's an "or" (sive). Sive de Bruodino = "or de Bruodino" - it was just there to give the Latin variant of the name.

I am still not sure if it is saying that it is 'mentioned' in the eulogies/epitaphs though. Any other views on the word refert and how it should be read in this context?

Here it can only mean something like "relates", "recounts", "mentions"...

 

[Bruodinus]

Brilliant - thank you for clearing that up Pacis Puella, much obliged indeed.

 

[Pacifica]

No problem.

 

[Imber Ranae]

I don't think filius is implied but I rather think that sive de Bruodino just indicates the Latin variant of the name McBruodin. "MacBruodin or (in Latin) de Bruodino".

Mac is the Irish word for 'son', though of course here it doesn't literally mean 'son of Brody' any more than 'Williamson' means 'son of William'. I think the preposition de is an attempt to render the force of it in Latin without translating it literally as filius, since that isn't a common naming convention in Latin.

 

[Aurifex]

Mac is the Irish word for 'son', though of course here it doesn't literally mean 'son of Brody' any more than 'Williamson' means 'son of William'. I think the preposition de is an attempt to render the force of it in Latin without translating it literally as filius, since that isn't a common naming convention in Latin.

Yes, that was my thinking too.

I don't think filius is implied but I rather think that sive de Bruodino just indicates the Latin variant of the name McBruodin. "MacBruodin or (in Latin) de Bruodino".

I could have left it as "or de Bruodino", as you suggest, but I was aiming to translate everything into English.

My other points concerns Elogijs (this is the spelling). In the text it is used many times to mean either poet or eulogist. This makes perfect sense in the context, as the McBrodin were a family of poets whose chief patrons were the O'Briens. But I can see also your reading of this for Elogijs
ok so how about this then:

....'as can be read in the Chronicles of the Bruodins, and as young Milerus MacBruodin, the [Mac]Broudin, mentions in the eulogies of O’Brien’....

That looks OK, with allowances made for the seu de Bruodino bit. "O Brienoram" possibly reads "O Brienorum" and should perhaps be translated "the O'Briens" rather than "O'Brien". A singular O'Brien is ambiguous to me, suggesting the eulogies may relate to the O'Brien family as a whole or just one O'Brien. I couldn't say for sure what the intended meaning of elogiis is.