Let us hear and analyse each other's Latin pronunciation

 

Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
Well it's just impossible for me to stretch all those vowels without sounding like a tape in slow motion, sorry. It's also quite hard to pronounce a long vowel without stressing it at the same time.
https://www.speakpipe.com/voice-recorder/msg/sl84h7t415c4huqa
Or I'll take a look at it now.

First a very nice try... you have attempted to do / did a lot of unexpected elements there :)

I'll just sometimes write what I hear from you and show likes this "-->" what it should be, perhaps insert some thought now and then. So you understand my notation: this "dīvisa -> sa" that you made one vowel short and also (therefore) moved the accent too back. The thing following the arrow is the correct version.

- Gallia - cool
- dīvisa -> sa
- quārum, Aquītānī - I hear [kw]... I'm saying that in anticipation of what you're going to say next :)
- -m nasalization right? well done
- in Aquītānī I hear also rather [kw]
-tertiam <- the "ti" before the vowel was here affricated (e.g. contaminated with some sibilant (s or sh) which gave a rise to new consonant <- probaly a relict from your former pronunciation
- quī - here I'm not sure what I hear in terms of consonants ... ^ (again saying that in some anticipation)
- linguā -> that was GOOD... good labiovelar stop (voiced one)! Now comes the paradox with your preceding [kw]'s (voiceless one)
- apelantur - double more
- linguā <- good again
- I also praise how you do both lengths and accents well in such words as institūtīs... lēgibus
- differunt I here here rather as ferunt
- Aquītānīs... I think [kw]
- very well said the part "Mātrona et Sēquana dīvidit"'
- fortissimī - very good ss
- ābsunt -> absunt
- minimēque ad eōs... funny, here you elide, but not in atque hūmanitāte :p Well I still think that most of the poetry elisions wouldn't in fact be in the normal language (some yes, but some are probably just forced on the language for the poetic purposes... by inspiration by Greek, and so forth)
- btw. in that qu(e)-ad eōs <- I think almost good labiovelar stop!
- very well said mercātōrēs with the three long vowels next to each other and one carrying the accent!
- pertinet <- the "ti" is here again slightly changed, this time it seems almost palatalized (as if "pert(j)inent")
- proximīque <- almost sounded (maybe it was) like a very good labiovelar :)
- quibuscum... I think good labiovelar!
- continenter - the first vowel sounded to me a bit unrounded (therefore gaining a similar quality as "a" has) - probably some circumstantial phonetic coincidence at your place... (or the presence of -n... who knows)
- bellum = very good ll

So mainly work on that "ti" and maybe try to apply the labiovelars more generally, you're already starting well :) (though you don't do them consistently).

But you've probably noticed that I praised more than corrected. To get it faster and then subsequently even more naturally sounding is now just a matter of training and getting used to this way of reading (if you're going to get used to it which would be a really good step forwards :) ).
 
 

Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
If you want to try more, start to read aloud some of the late chapter of LLPSI (those that are not that much easy and already interesting a bit): they are macronized (and even the hidden quantities are shown) <- I learnt the lengths through loud reading of this. (after 2-3 years of Latin ignoring it)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
Belgium
I tried to do the restituted qu- everywhere. If I failed in places, it must be because it's a sound I'm not used to pronouncing, so for me natural sounds are "k" and "kw", and it seems like when I try to pronounce the labiovelar which is like in the middle between "k" and "kw", my voice is sometimes tempted (so to speak) to fall back into either the one or the other, unvoluntarily.

I'm glad that I apparently succeeded in institutis and mercatores because those words with multiple long vowels are a devil to pronounce.

Humanitate is actually for me the hardest word to pronounce of all those contained in those lines.
 
 

Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
I see, I think you are succeeding already with -ngua and possibly also -qua. For -qui and -que (because -qu is no problem and "quo" if pronounced as [ko], while imprecise, will almost sound the same), but for these two (qui, que) I recommend rather trying to do it the second way I described in the fourth paragraph in the QU thread of mine (the paragraph dedicated just to que and qui). Because you, as French, should find a pretty good way how to say it like that (since even I used there one French word as an approximation of a certain articulation). And do THAT rather than trying to do also -que and -qui as literary labiovelars.

But if you tried it anyway, first round your lips, as if wanting to say "o", leave them rounded and say "ka, ke, ki, ko"... but again, I would recommend at least for "qui" to do what I described just for these special cases in the fourth paragraph of that thread.

I'm glad that I apparently succeeded in institutis and mercatores because those words with multiple long vowels are a devil to pronounce.
Yeah, you're killing it! ;)

Humanitate
is actually for me the hardest word to pronounce of all those contained in those lines.
It is hard. I guess one must initially say this word as in more parts, then listen to himself and start repeating it as if naturally saying one word. Tomorrow I'm going to have a better access to some recording equipment, so I can record more stuff or even just some words ;)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
Belgium
If I pronounce qui with the same sound as in "nuit", it seems to me that it's exactly the same as the non-restituted pronunciation of qui, with "kw"... I hear no "j" in "nuit", actually... just "nwi".
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
Belgium
I don't know if this could be a regional thing or something.
 
 

Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
If I pronounce qui with the same sound as in "nuit", it seems to me that it's exactly the same as the non-restituted pronunciation of qui, with "kw"... I hear no "j" in "nuit", actually... just "nwi".
In fact even "w" in English is partally done also as a velar (in the back of your mouth - though this is really counterintuitive). Well the thing is that you as a native speaker but non-phoneticican don't know very well what you do, but the phoneticicans do know - so you simply need to put your trust in them and analyse more what you do in such words that in formal phonetical transcription contain that symbol i mentioned. And yeah, it's a paradox that it might actually start to sound as French...
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris

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Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
Well here it is after all of the tweaking and learning of long vs. short vowels, as well as the learning of nasalisation. After many trials and discoveries, this is what I have produced.
Much better than the last time. As I said last time, I very much generally like the way you pronounce, it is very clear and if I omit some of those mistakes I'm going to enlist, then it is understandable and on a much higher level than I usually get from the English speakers attempting to do this under such severe conditions.

You've achieved to tackle most of the problems I've enlisted and that is why I am both happy and think that it is worth my time to review your recording again (because you've indeed learnt from most of your mistakes, though sometimes something from the last time still wasn't so well corrected).

But there are some new mistakes that arose and which became prominent in this recording and they unfortunately are connected to the fact that the phonology of your maternal language (English) still unfortunately in some new places (I haven't noticed before) influences your pronunciation that much that it becomes maybe serious (especially if it affects the grammatical ending of the word) and maybe the last time it wasn't really there because your brain was completely immersed in the Italian model (which carried its own perils and mistakes), but this time it became more prominent and I think you'll have a hard time to pay attention not to do that: I speak about vowel reduction which is something in the set of the western language quite unique for English and it pretty much affects the way the English speakers intuitively pronounce the foreign languages until they become so good that they change their habits and which element makes them distinctively English if listened to from outside.

Also some things about your nasalization must be tweaked: your attempt to nasalize was good per se, but something different happened and maybe much worse than if you simply not nasalize the -m's which is still generally acceptable (my original recordings don't contain nasalizations, though I would do them today probably). But more about that in my list of corrections :)

But otherwise a good job! :) Now, to the list:

__________________________________________


- disa -> dīsa (first ī also long)

- nice nasalization! (I'll submit a new recording of my own, maybe in one week, where I will do some of these elements I haven't done in my original recordings).
I would just say two things to the quārum as I heard it:​
1) it seemed to me (but that might just an illusion at my place, not necessarily a real thing) that the vowel quality of the nasalized "u" changed a bit, became maybe more central or more open / low - but maybe that's just an illusion​
2) maybe I wouldn't make such a pause between quārum and ūnam, then it sounds emphasized and who knows whether a classical speaker when reciting a written text wouldn't realize the emphasis as a full pronounced "m", though that is just a guess (in poetry there's a bit extreme solution where quārum ūnam becomes: quār'ūna[m]), so... not really any problem here, I just thought that the pause after the nasalization seemed to me a bit long.​
- qu as [kw] <- but that's generally ok, there are ways how make it better, but not yet generally required (+ my original recordings lacks them too)

- āliam -> aliam - this is something you didn't accomplish to correct from the last time (at least in this particular example): short accented syllable, must come out as short [accented, but short], not long, that's Italian, not Latin. The initial "a" must stay short, no matter what.

- Aquinī -> Aquīnī (be careful, not 2, but 3 long vowels in sequence)
- lingua -> linguā (ablative, not nominative, otherwise it makes no sense)

- apelentur -> appellantur: first, the vowel in an totally came out with a quality of Latin "e" and that would make it a subjunctive (if it was appellentur) and that changes the whole meaning of the clause, so you can't get this wrong, it matter too much. Second: the double vowels, the really must be geminated, I think this has been done well in my original recording (that is, you try to pronounce p but once you shut your mouth during the "p" pronunciation, you wait about a half-second to second longer, and THEN prnounce it. And when you pronounce ll, then simply make the "l" at least twice as long [this is easily done with l].

- hī omnēs lingua -> linguā - I really can't repeat this enough, but if you say there lingua with short "a", it becomes a NOMINATIVE, but that makes absolutely and utterly no sense. There MUST be an ablative and ablative differs from nominative JUST by length in the first declension, so there must be linguaaaaa... (also in the preceding case) and my transcription was careful to note it :)

- īnstitis -> īnstitīs: another difficult word. You made the ū well and stressed, but the last vowel is long two, so it's two long vowels in succession... And maybe you tried to do that long too, but comparatively to ū it totally came short (or even without the comparison)

-lēgibus: this was well done, but I think the ē needs to be even more close/more high (the tongue must be closer to "i", then to short "e", when you're saying "ē"). Now, my recording doesn't make it especially close (I also wrote that in my disclaimer, but I'll try to make a new one at the end of the week).

- diferunt -> differunt: 1) you put the accent at the final syllable again (thought, for the first time in this recording, which I'm glad for :) So you've definitely got better since the last time), it must be on the first syllable (see in my recording). 2) the "f" MUST be geminated. That is, twice as longer (see my recording): here it's done easily, since you can just inherently pronounce the "f" longer. 3) the "u" in differunt was maybe too much reduced as you said it: it came out as the schwa sound. That is, it maybe rather sounded as "a" in "about", then as "u" in "look" (but maybe it is just my illusion, though I wouldn't say so)

- ab Aquinīs -> Aquītānīs (3 long vowels, not two)

- Garumna: here the "u" was totally reduced (as "a" in "about", than "u" in "look" or "to"), you should try to avoid this extreme reducing. It is given by the phonological laws of English which simply wants to reduce a lot of vowels into this "shwa" sound, but such law was absent in the classical Latin at least in this particular form.

- a Belgīs: ā Belgīs: the ā must be long

- Mātra(?)na -> Mātrona: here the American pronunciation jumps in. In the American pronunciation of English of those sounds (or letters sometimes) that we consider a "short o" in "possible" or "rock" (<- here it's longer) or "God" are pronounced differently that in the Brittish English which is however unfortunate for you or any other latinist: because in the Brittish English the lips are rounded, and therefore the words I named (possible, rock, God) rather contain a much more similar sound to the one you find in "story" (even in American E.) than the sound you find in "star". So you must avoid pronounced it as this short American "o" (God, rock, possible) which is in fact quite the same sound as in "star" or "Mars". You must rather try to imitate the sound in "story" (and make it short, if possible), otherwise you end up with a sound which rather sounds in Latin phonology as "a" and will be mistaken for it. This is a big challenge for you as an American English speaker: if you achieve to adjust this, you've won. And you must pay attention therefore to every short "o" you're going to meet in Latin.

- Sēquāna -> quana: the qua must be short and unstressed.
- vidit: well done! :)

- Hōrum: the vowel quality of "u" changed too much here, it again comes closer to "a" here, you should watch it

- omnium: again, but here it's worse, because now it sounds exactly as "omnia" which is a different form of omnis, is... and therefore you change the sense of the whole thing

- fortissimī: very well done here! :) (geminated ss, and accent, well done)

- hūmanite -> hūmānite: be aware of the two long vowels at the beginning of the word. It's first two long vowels, then one short, then one long and stressed, and then one short (unstressed). I know this is a difficult word, even Pacis puella complained last time about this word :) It must be learnt on its own terms: first try to pronounce just "hūmā" (huumaa), then "nitā" (nitaa), then add them together and then add "te" and make sure the stress is in the right place :) Then repeat it again and again.

- absunt -> absunt: two mistakes 1) the final "u" got reduced again (sounded rather as "a" in "about" then "u" in "look" or "u") 2) you put the accent at the end again :D (though this time you don't do it so often as you did the last time), so cool.

- mercārēs: ok, I'm willing to believe you did the ōrēs, with long vowels (I wasn't thoroughly convinced, but ok, but you surely didn't do also the "ā" long. And again, three long vowels in succession: I know it's difficult, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore it, it means you must pay an extra attention to this one word alone and train it on its own terms ;) So do it please! :p (you can check Pacis Puellae last recording, I think she did it well that time)

- commeant: the stress was on the right place, but I'm not sure whether you really geminated the "m" or not...

- efēminendōs -> effēminandōs: two mistakes: 1) you seem to somehow always reduce the vowel quality of "a" in "ant" or "and" so it comes out as "ent" or "end" (this mistake was here already), but in Latin that's just not possibly and you risk of being wrong grammaically/morphologically: the vowels and especially in the endings MUST come out correctly. 2) the first "f" must be long, because it's "ff"

- ēnimōs -> animōs: two mistakes 1) why long vowel? I warned you already last time several times (you did here also with alius), you simply cannot make up the long vowels as you like, as it sounds cool to you, as if an Italian would pronounce it. This is not possible in Latin. 2) you changed here the "a" totally to "e" (to "ē") in fact, be more careful.

- important: one mistake, but a serious one. The last time, you did the "a" in "ant" well, but for the price that you stressed it, that you pronounced: important. So I told you you shouldn't do it, and you didn't this time: I praise that :) But for what price? For the price that if you don't stress it, you suddenly pronounce it as an English word "important" (almost), that is, you totally reduced the last "a" to schwa (the "a" in "about") <- not possible in Latin there must be approximately such "a" as in "star" (shorter one), or the one you did correctly in lingua (where I however warned that for that particular case the "a" must be long, here in "important" it's short).

- sunt <- reduced "u" to schwa (again), not pronounced as "u" should be pronounced.

- Gernī: not sure whether that "a" was long or not (seemed at least shorter than the ī in the end)

- Rhēna -> Rhēnum: your nasalization starts to be harmful, because the nasalized element almost gets lost, but your vowel changes completely and rather to "a": not possible, the vowel quality MUST always stay the same.

- incolunt -> incolunt: I warned you about this last time and in this case you didn't manage to correct it :) Also your "u" in incolunt was again reduced, this is now our new problem (caused by English)

- quibuscum: why the pause again after the word? The "u" again sounded here a little bit close to "a", watch that.

- continentēr - >continenter: 1) why long "e" at the end 2) WHY an accent (stress) at the end?

- bellam -> bellum: I think this time I heard "ll", though I'm not comletely sure, but OK. But the "um" nasalized, changed it completely to "am" here, which would change the sense of the sentence completely... (it would become nonsensical in fact).

____________

So again, thank you very much for posting! I really appreciate it, you are much further than most of the English speakers I've heard attempting this, your pronunciation is very clear and I like it, you've learnt from most of your mistakes (though sometimes you still put the accent at the end), but some new and serious mistakes arised: reducing vowels, changing vowel quality and you've not yet tackled always well the geminated consonants (mm, pp, ll, ff.. etc.)

But thank you again! :)
 
 

Godmy

Sīmia Illūstris

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Location:
Bohemia
Here are several audio links how British speakers pronounce "o" in such words as: rock, possible, God, lot

<- and this is rather desirable for Latin than their American counterparts. Listen and learn to do that :) (or an alternative: devise a way how to imitate the consonant in "more" or "story", but make it short in the same time)

(this is for AndrewEarthrise or for that matter any other speaker of Latin with American English pronunciation as his maternal tongue)

Pacis puella: ah, that slipped my fingers. I'm going to correct it (in fact I haven't read what I wrote not even once and I'm not especially looking forward to it :p)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis

Location:
Belgium
One of my favourite poems. I know there are some mistakes with vowel lengths (e.g. I pronounced the a in quas too short), and possibly with stress, but I just couldn't get to the end of it without making a mistake somewhere, and I was finally tired of always starting again from the beginning, so... finally I post it with the mistakes. :p

Éheu fucés, Postume, Postume,
buntur anní nec pietás moram
gís et instantí senectae
adferet indomitaeque mortí,

nón sí trenís quotquot eunt diés, 5
ace, plácés inlacribilem
Plúna taurís, quí ter amplum
ryonen Tityonque tristí

compescit undá, scílicet omnibus
quícumque terrae nere vescimur 10
énávigandá, ve gés
ve inopés erimus coní.

Frustrá cruenMarte cabimus
fractísque raufluctibus Hadriae,
frustrá per autumnós nocentem 15
corporibus metuémus Austrum:

sendus áter flúmine languidó
tos errans et Danaí genus
inme damnátusque lon
syphus Aeolidés laris. 20

Linquenda tellús et domus et placens
uxor, neque rum quás colis arborum
praeter insás cupressós
ulla brevem dominum sequétur;

abmet rés Caecuba dignior 25
serta centum clávibus et me
tinguet pavímentum superbó,
pontificum potiore nís.
 

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AndrewEarthrise

Member

Location:
New Orleans, Louisiana
Well, it's not that my language is coming out; The difference between short vowels and long vowels is not by how long they take to appear, but by how they are pronounced, being long vowels take twice as long to form. It is as in a, as in "at", ā as in "automatic", e as in "echo", ē as in "hey", i as in "it", ī as in "divide", o as in "bot", ō as in "boat", u as in "up", ū as in "stupify". It is as in Japanese, "Mōtēmāskā", which saying "Motemaska" would be wrong.

As for heavy syllables in Latin; they are used only for poetry. Which this selection is not.
http://www.wheelockslatin.com/chapters/introduction/introduction_syllables.html

This is just what my commentary is through the mistakes this time around.

disa: I hear a completed ī in the beginning.
āliam: If it were the case, I would have sounded it as in ā "awe", but I made a as in "bat"
Aquinī: I hear the completion of the first ī.
īnstitis: I hear the last vowel as ī, though the second vowel in the sentence I hear as ī, which would be wrong.
diferunt: I hear as díferunt, the short vowel makes it fast to catch.
Mātra(?)na: I pronounced it as the same as "Matron"
quāna: I pronounced it as "ana", as in sounding like the name "Ann"
ēnimōs: If I were saying "ē", it would sound like "ay"
incolunt: I do hear it as íncolunt, but the short vowel makes it fast to catch.

Again that is to me personally, and I shall work on the sounds to improve them based on your guidelines.

Thank you for reviewing it again!
 

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Aurifex

Aedilis

  • Aedilis

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Location:
England
-you are much further than most of the English speakers I've heard attempting this
I've never heard a British Latinist of my generation pronouncing Latin quite like that, Godmy. Most notably, we don't go in for such heavy rolling of the r's and the conspicuously foreign* (and not therefore necessarily Latin) accent. I don't find anything too controversial about it in other respects.
 
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