similarity of vocalization of IOVE and Yahweh

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

There is a lot of discussion these days (mostly raised in the last 20 years) as to the antiquity pronunciation of IOVE (transliterated as JOVE in English.)

The question raised is:

How accurately we can pin down the vocalization of IOVE, and how close it is to "Yahweh" ?

Please note: this concern is totally separate from etymological theories, cognate language stuff, various root theories, verb vs. noun in Hebrew, Hebrew vowel points, Yehovah or Yahweh, and theories of how one word might have contributed to the formation of the other. Those are interesting discussions, but for the question of similar vocalization they can all be simply a distraction or rabbit trail. The purpose here with Latin-savvy folks is not to determine etymology and history, or Bible theory, but simply whether the two words have the same, or very close, sound when spoken. (Clearly, determining precise antiquity Latin pronunciation is a smidgen art as well as science.)

Here is how one fellow, Patrick Lawrence, wrote it up as follows:

In English it is Jove and in classical Latin it is spelled IOVE and pronounced Yahweh. If we check a pronunciation chart of classical Latin in a book called Vox Latina, which is one of the most respected and authoritative books on the pronunciation of classical Latin we find that "I" is pronounced as a double "EE" sound as in the word sheep and the "O" is pronounced as a "AH" sound as in the word father and the "V" is pronounced as a "W" as in the word whale and the "E" is pronounced as "EH" as in the word pet. If we put these sounds together EE + AH + W + EH it pronounces YAHWEH. The EE sound + AH sound = YAH and W + EH = WEH, put the two sounds together and it pronounces YAHWEH spelled IOVE in classical Latin which is the King of all the Roman Gods.

Others have said similar, although at times a bit more loosey-goosey, especially as to the short "O" sound.

Your thoughts welcome.
Thanks!

Steven Avery
Asheville, NC

 

[Imperfacundus]

The form jove would be pronounced as [ˈjɔwɛ] per the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Latin.

I'd like to add that the word comes from Proto-Indo-European, whereas yhwh comes from Proto-Semitic. The two aren't related.

 

[Aurifex]

I don't know where this is coming from or where it's going, but Patrick Lawrence's rambling article tells us only one useful thing: that a little learning is a dangerous thing.

 

[Imperfacundus]

Well, might as well refute it here for the benefit of passersby.

Look here. The PIE word that became ju(ppiter), jovis, etc. was *deiwos. It only came to have the initial y sound in Proto-Italic (but not in other derivatives, such as the one that became Latin divus). So in order to have yahweh derive from jove, you'd have to have the ancient Israelites borrowing the word from some Italic group, rather than speakers of other descendants of PIE. I invite you to prove that this is more plausible than the usually proposed theories of a Semitic origin.

 

[Steven Avery]

> Imperfacundus
> The form jove would be pronounced as [ˈjɔwɛ] per the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Latin.

Thanks. And how would that sound when spoken by an American?
Two possibilites come to mind.
1) .mp3
2) the closest English letter approximation

> Aurifex
> Patrick Lawrence's rambling article

The only part from Patrick Lawrence that is really relevant here is the paragraph I put above. Which is a bit run-on but quite understandable. Similar explanations have been given independently by others, as I pointed out, sometimes with a bit more fluidity.

> Imperfacundus
> The two aren't related.

As for whether there is an etymological relationship, I specifically pointed out that such questions are not really relevant to this inquiry. Historically there have been many theories of the origins of the two forms, and those can be discussed in etymology threads. On the Hebrew side there are huge questions as to whether Yahweh is a correct representation of the Tetragram, or a total mangling. However, afaik, this is not the forum for those questions.

We all know the SOUND of the word Yahweh in English.
And the comparison requested is to the sound of IOVE.

> Imperfacundus
> So in order to have yahweh derive from jove

As I pointed out rather carefully, that is not the question being asked.

Steven

 

[Imperfacundus]

[ˈjɔwɛ]
j as in yes
ɔ as in force
w as in win
ɛ as in bet

 

[Aurifex]

Steven, does the remark "I'll take the other Steven Avery any day" ring any bells?
Be warned.

 

[Iohannes Aurum]

The Iove-Yahweh connection is one of the best examples of a false cognate, especially given that both words are from unrelated language families.

 

[Steven Avery]

Hi latindiscussion,

It is always interesting to see all the non-issues that can arise. Remember, in the OP it was pointed out that this was not a cognate or etymology discussion.

The Iove-Yahweh connection is one of the best examples of a false cognate, especially given that both words are from unrelated language families.

Iohannes, I certainly do not see the two words as cognates. And I know that there are some people who do. And speaking to those people, I would agree with what you say. I have looked at some of the speculation in scholarship realms, especially in the 1800s when this was part of the controversy. Cognates, as I have pointed out a couple of times, are not the issue that I raised. (In fact, I specifically consider it a non-issue, especially as I consider Yahweh a mangling of the Hebrew.)

As for the weirdness of Aurifex, sideswiping humorously with a convicted murderer, irrelevant nonsense. If you are a mod, or want to politic with the mods, go right ahead. And I will happily stick with the pronunciation and scholarship issues. I never mind a thread shut down as long as I have handled my part with sincerity and integrity.

About the earlier thread, elsewhere, note that I did have a little fun going back to Thomas Naeogeorgus and seeing what he wrote about the heavenly witnesses grammar in the 1500s. Erasmus also referenced the Greek grammatical issue, however only en passant. Naeogeorgus helps us understand the 1500s scholarship and was an important predecessor to Eugenius Bulgaris. Overall, that was a superb thread.

Now we get to what is very helpful.

[ˈjɔwɛ]
j as in yes
ɔ as in force
w as in win
ɛ as in bet

Notice this about our bet.

bet pronunciation == eh
Spoken English by Namrata Palta
https://books.google.com/books?id=yhfCj3QVIFUC&pg=PA27

Also the letter is called eh, as shown herein p. 7:

The correct pronunciation of Latin according to Roman usage (1937)
Michael D'Angelis
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004934256;view=1up;seq=13

E e (eh) is pronounced as in let, met, rent, bent, tent, went, etc. There is never any deviation in color or timbre from the short exclamatory “eh!” sound. ... Never give "e" the long sound "a"as in "way," "bay,” etc. p. 8

Thus, if this applies well to our classical Latin there seems to would be no question between yahweh and what we often hear, yahway (an American-style pronunciation.) Yahway does not apply to the Latin of Jove, and it similarly, I am quite sure, would not work as the proposed, conjectural, tenuous, dubious Hebrew guess, Yahweh.

O-o
O o (aw) is pronounced like “o” in “order,” or like “a” in “awe.” It is never
given the “o” sound as in “oh” or as in “go.” ...
Examples
Domine—DAW-mee-neh; Gloria—GLAW'ree'ah; voluntatis—Vawdoon'TAH'
tees; quoniam—KOOAW'nee'ahm; non—NAWN; mortuos—MAWR'too-aws;
NEVER—Doh'mee-neh; Glow'ree'dh; Volvlun'tatis; Koo-oh'nee'ahm; nohn; mohr'
too'ohs.

Choral Techniques (2010)
Gordon Lamb
https://archive.org/stream/ost-art-col11191#page/n199/mode/2up/
The Latin o receives the pronunciation as in our word awe, with no trace of a second sound

So we have the Latin as represented well in English as yoweh or yaweh.

1. Yowe (yohweh) - note that the "o" in order is very close to the "a" in awe.
2. Yawe (yahweh)

so we are clearly exceedingly close in sound to yahweh.

Our English yahweh varies as to whether the h is given a distinct sound. I hear both ya-weh and yah-weh, with different emphasis, and the aspiration is essentially implied in the short vowel.

As an aside, this book is gives fawrce ass the pronunciation of force, a bit of a stretch.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-S9Vl5FK2FUC&pg=PA114

Here are our two "O"s above:

the "O" is pronounced as a "AH" sound as in the word father - Patrick Lawrence
ɔ as in force - Imperfacundus

And is this next gentleman accurate?

John D. Clark
as anyone learns in the first few days of studying the Latin language, a short "O" sound (such as in the Latin word Jove) is difficult to spell out, but is somewhat like "AH".
http://www.oocities.org/athens/acropolis/5744/APOSTATEFATHERS.HTM

Similarly this gentleman saw the "AH" sound:

The letter "O"... If short, it sounds like the "a" in "father".
Yermeyah
http://eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/002719-4.html

Is there any basis in the literature for directly claiming an "ah" ? Rather than a subtle aspiration.

In summary from what I have seen so far:

IOVE is in the range of yoweh and yahweh.

All attempts to pin it down more exactly, and any possible corrections, are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steven

 

[Imperfacundus]

It's pronounced with the same vowel as in 'force' for any variety of American English that I'm aware of. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Done and done.

 

[Dantius]

Yes, "iove" (which is not even the base form, but an inflected form of the word for Jupiter), and "Yahweh" sound similar, as far as I know.

 

[Steven Avery]

Thank you Dantius.

A refreshing, straightforward answer, on the actual question.
To be fair, Imperfacundus has largely stayed the course as well.

The relationship with iove, iovis and iupiter/iupitter is a bit unusual, or puzzling. (Let me switch to the English transcriptions.)

Jupiter is said to mean Jove-pater ... father Jove, yet they are listed often as distinct forms of the same word.
Would you say that mixing the compound form with the simple form is a bit of a linguistic-historical presentation quirk?

Are there any other examples (in any language) where this is done?

Steven

 

[Imperfacundus]

They are distinct forms of the same word. The subject case version is Juppiter, the accusative (direct object) form is Jovem, etc.

I'm not sure what to call the phenomenon. It's somewhat similar to suppletion. Maybe similar enough to be considered a subset of it.

 

[Steven Avery]

Thanks. Yes, a specialty suppletion superb!

 

[Aurifex]

As for the weirdness of Aurifex, sideswiping humorously with a convicted murderer, irrelevant nonsense.

An alternative to sideswiping is a head-on approach. That's still an option.

 

[Westcott]

I don't have a copy of Vox Latina. Does it really say that O is pronounced AH as in father? Have I been doing it wrong all these years? And no distinction between the short vowel as in vox and the long vowel as in vocis? So for vox, vocis I should have been saying vaax, vaacis?

 

[cinefactus]

I don't have a copy of Vox Latina. Does it really say that O is pronounced AH as in father?

Only if you are from California

Vox Latina, page 50: short e and o were similar to the vowels of pet and pot. Long ē and ō present rather greater difficulty for R.P. speakers... [snip] ...another close comparison of quality would be with the vowels of French gai and beau, or of German Beet and Boot.

 

[Imperfacundus]

I'm not sure I get how that comparison works. We (Californians) pronounce the word as f[ɑ]ther , not f[ɔ]ther. The [ɔ] sound is pretty rare here, I had to sit down and think for a while before coming up with the example of 'force'.

 

[Imperfacundus]

For some reason it seems to come before <r> a lot. More, whore, war, bore, horse, force...

 

[cinefactus]

I'm not sure I get how that comparison works.

I was thinking of the English pronunciation of father...

It comes from hours of gritting my teeth listening to my daughter watching Dora the Explorer