Aeneid - Book VI

[Dantius]

I'm pretty sure it can be done and that's what we have here.

I'm looking through the dictionary for instances – it's common with an infinitive, and with an ut clause, but L+S doesn't seem to give any instances of dare with just a subjunctive, and the OLD only gives a few (from Plautus and an inscription). Do you have any other examples?

 

[AoM]

Just checked Page. Here's his note:

"Kennedy rightly says that the construction is this: date spargam manibus plenis lilia, purpureos flores, et adcumulem; date being followed by a subj. like many verbs of permitting, granting, allowing. 'I admit,' he adds, 'that the verb dare is preferred to sinere because lilies must be given to Anchises for his purpose. The flowers are conceived as objects of date, but constructed otherwise: viz. lilia as nearer (accus.) object of spargam.' He renders: 'Grant me to strew by handfuls purple lily flowers, and with such gifts at least to endow....'
The rendering 'give me lilies..., let me scatter purple flowers,' assigns a meaning to the subjunctive spargam which it will not bear."

 

[Pacifica]

So you'd take everything together with spargam?

What do you mean by "everything"? Both lilia and flores? Yes.

Do you have any other examples?

No.

 

[AoM]

What do you mean by "everything"? Both lilia and flores? Yes.

Yeah. I asked because Conington also said: "Gossrau makes "date" parenthetical, taking "manibus lilia plenis" with "spargam," which is of course out of the question."

But I guess it's the parenthetical bit that makes it entirely out of the question for him.

 

[AoM]

So, Horsfall.

He takes manibus lilia plenis with date. And Dantius, yeah, he really wants to take spargam as a future lol. In his translation, he even translates all three as futures. Though with 'shall', I guess you could argue they have a different tone.

He recognizes Virgil's fondness for parataxis, but says that "language, grammar and ideas should be simpler here, just as they are in fun. epigram." Fun. is indeed an unfortunate shortening of 'funerary'.

And he says that "normal, literary lilies are white", so they wouldn't be identified as purpureos flores.

 

[Pacifica]

Fun. is indeed an unfortunate shortening of 'funerary'.

Lol!

 

[AoM]

Lines 801-853:

- Alcides (801): cf. Alciden (123, 392).
- cervam (802): cf. qualis coniecta cerva sagitta (IV.69).
- Lernam (803): cf. belua Lernae (287).
- tremefecerit (803): cf. tremefacta...per pectora (II.228); Androgeos visu tremefactus (II.382); tremefacta...vertice (II.629).
- Ausonia prohibet consistere terra (807): cf. primaque vetant consistere terra (I.541); hac...consistere terra (I.629).
- ramis...olivae (808): cf. ramo felicis olivae (230).
- residesque... / ...desueta (813-4): cf. iam pridem resides animos desuetaque corda (I.722).
- ultoris Bruti (818): revelatory enjambment.
- natosque pater nova bella moventis (820): chiasmus.
- ad poenam pulchra pro libertate vocabit (821): spondaic line (cf. 820) with notable alliteration.
- utcumque ferent ea facta minores (822): which could be applied to the more well-known Brutus as well.
- saevumque securi (824): cf. saevasque securis (819).
- paribus...in armis (826): cf. paribusque accingitur armis (184, of Aeneas).
- stragemque (829): cf. confusae stragis acervum (504).
- socer... / ...gener (830-1): more than just a civil war.
- neu patriae validas in viscera vertite viris (833): incredibly emphatic alliteration.
- triumphata Capitolia ad alta Corintho (836): chiasmus.
- victor aget currum (837): cf. victor iuga flectit (804).
- eruet (838): cf. lamentabile regnum / eruerint Danai (II.4-5); totamque a sedibus urbem / eruit (II.611-2).
- Agamemnoniasque Mycenas (838): cf. Agamemnoniaeque phalanges (489).
- armipotentis Achilli (839): cf. Deiphobe armipotens (500).
- cladem Libyae (843): cf. cladem illius noctis (II.361); Virgil connects the fall of Troy to the fall of Carthage.
- excudent (847): cf. ac primum silici scintillam excudit Achates (I.174).

 

[AoM]

Lines 854-901:

- spoliis...opimis (855): rendering it as such in English, given its definite meaning, seems best.
- ingreditur victorque viros supereminet omnis (856): cf. gradiensque deas supereminet omnis (I.501, of Diana).
- Poenos (858): cf. Poeni (I.302, 442, 567); Poenorum (IV.134).
- fulgentibus armis (861): cf. 217.
- deiecto...vultu (862): cf. deiecit vultum (III.320, of Andromache).
- magna de stirpe nepotum (864): cf. antiqua Teucrorum ab stirpe (I.626); a stirpe parentum (III.94); stirpis Achilleae (III.326); stirpem et genus omne futurum (IV.622); egregia Priami de stirpe (V.297); divinae stirpis (V.711).
- sed nox atra caput tristi circumvolat umbra (866): cf. nox atra cava circumvolat umbra (II.360).
- lacrimis ingressus obortis (867): cf. digrediens lacrimis adfabar obortis (III.492, of Aeneas).
- spumantis equi (881): cf. spumantis apri (I.324).
- si qua fata aspera rumpas (882): cf. si qua fata sinant (I.18).
- tu Marcellus eris (883): and Octavia was so close to hearing the whole book...
- manibus date lilia plenis / purpureos spargam flores (883-4): see above discussion.
- vagantur (886): cf. ea fama vagatur (II.17); totaque vagatur / urbe furens (IV.68-9, of Dido); ternique vagantur / ductores (V.560-1).
- lustrant (887): cf. lustrabat (681).
- incenditque animum famae venientis amore (889): cf. incenditque animum dictis (IV.197).
- Laurentisque docet populos urbemque Latini (891): chiastic arrangement.
- et quo quemque modo fugiatque feratque laborem (892): cf. et quo quemque modo fugiasque ferasque laborem (III.459, said by the Sibyl to Aeneas).
- sunt geminae Somni portae (893): interlocking alliteration and assonance; a drowsy four words.
- perfecta...elephanto (895): cf. secto elephanto (III.464); cymbiaque argento perfecta (V.267).
- prosequitur dictis (898): cf. prosequitur lacrimis (476); as if Anchises is fighting against time.
- sociosque revisit (899): cf. socios...reviso (II.795); just as Aeneas made it out of Troy, so too he makes it out of the underworld.
- ancora de prora iacitur, stant litore puppes (901): cf. III.277.

--

And that's book 6. I had read it once before this. It's probably my favorite along with book 2.

Thanks to those who posted. I still have like 300 pages of Horsfall to go through, so I may post random questions/musings in here.

 

[Dantius]

So far books 2 and 4 are my favorites. Book 6 probably comes in 3rd for me.

 

[AoM]

quattuor hic primum nigrantis terga iuvencos
constituit frontique invergit vina sacerdos,
et summas carpens media inter cornua saetas
ignibus imponit sacris, libamina prima,
voce vocans Hecaten caeloque Ereboque potentem. (243-7)

Q: To whom does sacerdos refer?

Many take it as the Sibyl (cf. 35, 41, 321, 544, 628).

However, as Horsfall notes, the Sibyl told Aeneas above to do such things (duc nigras pecudes; ea prima piacula sunto, 153). Some take it as Aeneas, but he's clearly identified just after (ipse... / Aeneas, 249-50).

Horsfall has an interesting conjecture that it's an anonymous priest. Those who hold the knives and collect the blood are also unnamed (supponunt alii cultros tepidumque cruorem / succipiunt pateris, 248-9).

I think it could definitely just be the Sibyl, with her performing certain rites first before Aeneas does so. But Horsfall's thought is enticing.

 

[Dantius]

Can you think of any other adjectives with in- (that aren't negatives)?

I just came across incitus in book 12. L+S has 2 entries for incitus, one meaning "rapid, swift, violent" and one meaning "immovable". The first meaning is only poetic, and the second one is used only to refer to chessmen or in the phrase "ad incita/incitas redigere/redire".

So the first usage does seem to be similar to incanus, where in is just intensive.

 

[AoM]

Thanks. For incana, Horsfall just mentions the use by Plautus and the one in the Georgics.

 

[AoM]

quid memorem Lapithas, Ixiona Pirithoumque?
quos super atra silex iam iam lapsura cadentique
imminet adsimilis; lucent genialibus altis
aurea fulcra toris, epulaeque ante ora paratae
regifico luxu; Furiarum maxima iuxta
accubat et manibus prohibet contingere mensas,
exsurgitque facem attollens atque intonat ore. (601-7)

The Sibyl speaking to Aeneas, still describing those in Tartarus.

First, quos. Apparently there's a lacuna in the text (around?) here. There was a suggestion by a scholar named Jahn to understand quid memorem with quos. Horsfall finds this somewhat attractive. In which case, are the ora of 604 those of quos? Given the mythology, Horsfall wants to take it as Tantalus's alone. This is also the case with manibus. The hands of Tantalus, or of the quos?

Any thoughts?

 

[AoM]

effusaeque genis lacrimae (686)

Anchises upon seeing Aeneas.

genis as local ablative (or ablative of extension), with the meaning of 'cheeks'? Or with the meaning of 'eyelids', in which case, 'from...'?

Horsfall leans toward the latter. I think the former is perfectly fine, but thoughts?

 

[Dantius]

I most likely took it as "cheeks". I'm vaguely aware that genae can mean "eyelids", I think, but that's never the meaning that comes to mind. I don't really see anything wrong with the first interpretation, but I don't know which is better.

 

[AoM]

Thanks. I'll probably stick with the former for now.

--

A great article well worth reading.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/294811

 

[AoM]

inde hominum pecudumque genus vitaeque volantum
et quae marmoreo fert monstra sub aequore pontus.
igneus est ollis vigor et caelestis origo
seminibus (728-31)

Take them together or separately? Horsfall favors the latter, saying there's no need to wait for seminibus.

 

[AoM]

Made it through Horsfall. Now only the short appendices left.

Definitely recommended at that price, especially compared to his other commentaries.

 

[Symposion]

Is erat refering to pius Aeneas as the verb is in singular third person and not to the Euboicae in 45?

Is the section 46-47 refering to the Euboicae and not to the Sibylla?

What does derexti mean in 57?

Should it not be repositas and not repostas in 59?

 

[Pacifica]

Is erat refering to pius Aeneas as the verb is in singular third person and not to the Euboicae in 45?

Erat doesn't refer to Aeneas; ventum erat is an impersonal passive. Do you know what that is? If you're unsure, look it up in a grammar or/and have a look at section 5 here.
Euboicae is singular genitive (agreeing with rupis), not plural nominative.

Is the section 46-47 refering to the Euboicae and not to the Sibylla?

The virgo is the Sibyl.

What does derexti mean in 57?

It's a syncopated form of derexisti.

Should it not be repositas and not repostas in 59?

The latter is a syncopated form of the former. Repositas wouldn't scan.