Aeneid - Book II

By AoM, in 'Reading Latin', Jun 3, 2016.

  1. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Yeah, I don't entirely understand his reasoning of it being an unbalanced sentence. If the second si weren't there, sure. But his reading does make sense.
  2. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    Servius says mens refers to the Trojans.
  3. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Oh yeah, forgot to include Servius. Williams even more outnumbered.
  4. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    When I read it, I took laeva to go with both fata and mens and I understood mens to refer to the Trojans. It made more sense to me from the context since Troy was understood to have fallen both because of the gods' will and because of their own foolishness to drag in the horse. In fact, that's also what's represented in the Laocoon episode: First he warns his compatriots and no one listens to him (mens), then Pallas sends two serpents to kill him (interference by gods).

    I wouldn't have a problem with the sentence being unbalanced; I actually thought that was the intention. There are a few other unbalanced elements in there like the indicative in impulerat vs. the subjunctives in the next verse and the sudden shift from 3rd person singular to the 2nd person in maneres (with arx being a vocative). [If I remember correctly, there's also the reading maneret, but maneres is the lectio difficilior and thus the more likely one]
    Apart from that, it's supposed to represent someone recounting the loss of his hometown and the narration reaches its peak in that exclamation, so there's even more reason for there to be some intentional kind of imbalance.
    Dantius likes this.
  5. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    That's a good point about the other imbalances present.

    And for the last bit, editors seem to have their favorites:

    - staret...maneres
    - staret...maneret
    - stares...maneret
    - stares...maneres
  6. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    tum vero manifesta fides, Danaumque patescunt
    insidiae. (309-10)

    The truth of Aeneas's dream (via Hector) or the faith/honesty of the Greeks (via Sinon)?

    Conington/Nettleship:

    The thing demonstrated is the truth of the vision and its revelations. It matters little whether "manifesta" be taken as a predicate, or "fides" constructed with "patescunt."

    Servius:

    manifesta fides non somnii, ut quidam volunt, sed fraudis Graecorum: nam et hoc sequitur 'Danaumque patescunt insidiae'. quamvis alii hoc ad Laocoontis interitum, alii ad responsa Cassandrae applicent.

    Williams:

    fides: 'the proof', cf. Aen. 3.375; or perhaps with bitter sarcasm 'the trustworthiness of the Greeks', i.e. their perfidy.

    Ganiban:

    fides: "truth," "proof." As Aeneas sees the city under attack, the truth of Hector's words (289-95) becomes manifest.

    --

    I initially went with Williams' latter suggestion, but I can see it as referencing the apparent truth of Aeneas's vision.
  7. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    That seems to be all for book 2. Any thoughts on the above?
  8. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    accipe nunc Danaum insidias et crimine ab uno
    disce omnis. (65-6)

    So apparently most scholars understand something like Danaos.

    And here I was taking it with insidias. :oops:
  9. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    I had interpreted it the same way as you, I think.
  10. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    That was my understanding too. Though I suppose it could makes sense to take it with insidias in a sense like "From this one bad trick of theirs, learn all their other bad tricks or all the tricks they're capable of", the interpretation "From this one bad trick, learn how all Greeks are assholes" came more naturally to me.
  11. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    But isn't Danaum a genitive going with insidias, though?
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    It is. No one has said the contrary. What the scholars and I argue is that Danaos is implied with omnis:

    accipe nunc Danaum insidias et crimine ab uno
    disce omnis (Danaos).
  13. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    That's the better choice, I think. The Danaos is reaching.
  14. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Dantius, could you check what Horsfall says?
  15. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    [IMG]
  16. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Thanks. Weird he doesn't even mention Danaos. I guess he assumes it's obvious.
  17. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    Yeah, it confused me a bit at first. But the other passages he cites made it pretty clear that he's interpreting it as Danaos.
  18. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Going through Horsfall's commentary.

    si fata deum, si mens non laeva fuisset (54)

    I can see the argument for taking deum with both fata and mens now. Since non...fuisset is supposed to be understood with both, why not deum as well? Also: haud equidem sine mente, reor, sine numine divum (V.56).
  19. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    hanc tamen immensam Calchas attollere molem
    roboribus textis caeloque educere iussit,
    ne recipi portis aut duci in moenia posset,
    neu populum antiqua sub religione tueri. (185-8)

    tamen V. rather stretches the language: clearly the force of tamen cannot be taken as applying to either attollere or to iussit. Rather, tamen limits hanc...immensam but the sense of that limitation does not clearly emerge until the paratactic explanation finishes at 188. Gk. would write, effortlessly, γ᾽ ὥστε after the adj..

    What does Horsfall mean here? Something like, 'immense as it is'?
    Last edited by AoM, Jul 16, 2018
  20. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Maybe I'd forgotten this echo, but:

    _______________bis collo squamea circum
    terga dati superant capite et cervicibus altis. (218-9)

    ter conatus ibi collo dare bracchia circum (792)

Share This Page

 

Our Latin forum is a community for discussion of all topics relating to Latin language, ancient and medieval world.

Latin Boards on this Forum:

English to Latin, Latin to English translation, general Latin language, Latin grammar, Latine loquere, ancient and medieval world links.