Aeneid - Book III

By AoM, in 'Reading Latin', Dec 27, 2016.

  1. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Starting this soon.

    Book II thread

    Edit: Forgot to mention that I picked up another commentary since working on book 2. So if I mention "Perkell", that's what I'm referring to. She's cited Horsfall a couple of times already (who is an acquaintance of a professor I had), and I'd love to read his commentary, but these prices.
    Last edited by AoM, Dec 27, 2016
  2. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Lines 1-48:

    - molimur (6): contains the actions of struggling and building.
    - cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis (12): a fifth foot spondee! (apparently the meter and line itself are reminiscent of Ennius)
    - superoque nitentem / ...in litore taurum (20-21): extreme synchysis.
    - horrendum et dictu video mirabile monstrum (26): cf. cum subitum dictuque oritur mirabile monstrum (II.680).
    - rite secundarent visus omenque levarent (36): I had no clue what this was doing at first. Williams: "The construction is an indirect petition after the idea of orans which is present in venerabar."
    - obstipui steteruntque comae et vox faucibus haesit (48): repeated line (II.774); in book 2, the line comes before Creusa's speech, here after Polydorus'.

    --

    - hospitium antiquum Troiae (15): I have 'sanctuary' for hospitium. It's not exactly the meaning here since sanctuary is more a safe place, and here it's just talking about hospitality. Any one word suggestions for 'hospitable/friendly place'?

    - genibusque adversae obluctor harenae (38): not much help from the commentaries here. I assume Aeneas is on his knees and is trying to get a good position to be able to tear at the twigs, branches, etc. But because sand moves about and sinks, it's hard for him to do so; I translated adversae as 'unfavorable' to contrast it with secundarent above.

    - nam Polydorus ego (45): to capture Polydorus' (and Virgil's) terse language, I have 'for Polydorus, I'm him'. Suggestions definitely welcome here.

    - et iaculis increvit acutis (46): the subject is seges, and I assume a mihi should be understood: 'and grown upon me with sharp darts'. Williams takes it absolutely ('and grew up with pointed shafts'); Kline does as well ('and has ripened into sharp spines'). Perkell doesn't address the verb, but says iaculis...acutis is an ablative of quality or material with seges.
    Last edited by AoM, Dec 30, 2016
  3. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Quick point:

    et circum Iliades crinem de more solutae (65)

    I was going to translate crinem...solutae as 'their hair let down', but then I remembered the idiom we have in English. To let your hair down means to be more carefree, more relaxed. Best to avoid it here, in the context of a funeral, huh? But I guess it could also be taken as they're going to show their true emotions, how they actually feel with their hair down.
  4. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Lines 49-83:

    - Polydorum obtruncat (55): cf. natum ante ora patris, patrem qui obtruncat ad aras (II.663).
    - delectos populi ad proceres primumque parentem (58): extensive alliteration.
    - monstra deum refero, et quae sit sententia posco (59): both the commentaries I'm using pointed this out, but it's so ingenious of Virgil to seed these Roman traditions in the narrative.
    - gratissima (73): cf. II.269.
    - Arquitenens (75): an impressive epithet.
    - rex...hominum (80): cf. hominum rex (I.65 and II.648, both referring to Jupiter).

    -

    Hunc Polydorum auri quondam cum pondere magno
    infelix Priamus furtim mandarat alendum
    Threicio regi... (49-51)

    Is Threicio regi performing two functions here (dative with mandarat and of agent with alendum)?

    proceres (58)

    Any good translations for proceres? Commentaries and translations are using 'leaders', which just seems really dull to me.

    et circum Iliades crinem de more solutae (65)

    See post above.
  5. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    - nec longo distant cursu (116)

    The subject is regna. Perkell says longo...cursu is an ablative of degree of difference, then fails to provide a translation. :brickwall:

    I'm thinking the sense is something like, "when it comes to/compared to/by the standards of a long voyage, it's not far-off."

    Klines' translation: "It is no long journey away"
  6. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    Yes, ablative of degree of difference. "disto" means "to stand apart, be distant", so "nor are they distant by a long course" or something like that, literally, I think.
    AoM likes this.
  7. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    Yes. It's fairly common, something like "Camillus magistrum pueris reducendum domum dedit", "Camillus gave the teacher to the boys to be lead back home (by the boys)."
    [IMG]

    [IMG]
  8. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Ah ok. I guess I'm just so used to them being used with comparatives.
    Yeah, I had known about examples like the patriam one in the pic. I was just vacillating between

    1) '...with a great weight of gold to be brought up by Thrace's king'
    2) '...with a great weight of gold to Thrace's king, to be brought up by him'
  9. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    I prefer the second one.
  10. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Lines 84-146:

    - saxo...structa vetusto (84): cf. tumulus templumque vetustum (II.713).
    - reliquias Danaum atque immitis Achilli (87): cf. I.30 and I.598.
    - tum genitor veterum volvens monimenta virorum (102): cf. At pius Aeneas, per noctem plurima volvens (I.305).
    - optavitque locum regno (109): cf. pars optare locum tecto (I.425).
    - et crebris legimus freta concita terris (127): chiasmus; also, I'm reading concita here.
    - nauticus exoritur vario certamine clamor (128): another chiasmus.
    - hortantur socii Cretam proavosque petamus (129): I rendered this in direct speech.
    - laetam cognomine gentem (133): cf. fulvo nutricis tegmine laetus (I.275).
    - iura domosque dabam (137): iura dabat legesque viris (I.507).
    - subito cum...letifer annus (137-9): a confusing description, highlighting Aeneas' anxiety.
    - linquebant dulcis animas aut aegra trahebant / corpora (140-1): cf. et corpora saltu / ad terram misere aut ignibus aegra dedere (II.565-6).
    - et victum seges aegra negabat (142): connecting back to the aegra above; I especially like the choice of verb.
    - remenso /...mari (143-4): cf. pelagoque remenso (II.181).

    --

    'Dardanidae duri, quae vos a stirpe parentum
    prima tulit tellus, eadem vos ubere laeto
    accipiet reduces.' (94-6)

    Context: the Trojans are at Delos, and ask Apollo to tell them where to go. This is the beginning of Apollo's reply.

    My question is to whom is parentum referring? The Trojans' parents? The tellus's?
  11. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    The Trojans'.
  12. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Thanks. That's what I was thinking it had to be, but then I saw Klines' translation ('from its parent stock') and wondered whether he saw something I was missing.
  13. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Hm, well, I don't know; I guess it isn't impossible for it to mean the land's parents in a figurative way, but the other interpretation came more spontaneously to me.
  14. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Yeah, that's the thing about the Aeneid: everyone seems to have their own interpretation of everything lol. I think I'll go with 'of your parents'.
  15. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    It still seems more likely to me.
  16. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    et terris animalia somnus habebat (147)

    Probably doesn't make that much difference, but terris: dative of possession or ablative? I was all dative, but then saw a resource that had ablative.

    Or can terris even be a dative of possession since it's not a person? I just assumed given some of the translations.
  17. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    It's ablative (a locative ablative). A so-called dative of possession wouldn't really make any sense there. If it were dative, it would mean "sleep held the animals for the earth", which would be rather weird.

    The dative of possession is often misunderstood.

    A dative of possession, properly, is used with the verb esse in sentences like tibi filius est = "a son is to you" = "you have a son".

    Datives of reference or of advantage/disadvantage in sentences like mihi caput percutit are also sometimes called datives of possession because the natural English translation would be "he hits my head", but in the Latin, mihi isn't used as a possessive modifying caput (it isn't caput mihi = my head), but it goes with the verb and indicates to whom the action is done (it is mihi percutit = he hits to me—he does the head-hitting to me).
    AoM likes this.
  18. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Thanks. I think I was doing too much mental gymnastics, understanding something like: animalia quae terris sunt. In general, can inanimate objects be used as datives of possession? I guess if they're personified?
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I don't see why they couldn't be, in theory; it's just rarer for natural reasons.
  20. AoM Rosa Caerula

    • Civis Illustris
    Lines 147-191:

    - visi ante oculos (150): double elision; also, cf. II.270-1 and II.773.
    - tum sic adfari et curas his demere dictis (153): repeated line (II.775, Creusa's ghost addressing him).
    - tu moenia magnis / magna para longumque fugae ne linque laborem (159-60): emphatic alliteration.
    - Lines 163-6: repeated lines (I.530-3); somehow Ilioneus repeats verbatim what the Penates say... :think:
    - hae nobis propriae sedes, hinc Dardanus ortus / Iasiusque pater, genus a quo principe nostrum (167-8): emphatic ellipsis.
    - surge age et (169): age gets eaten via ellipsis.
    - haec laetus longaevo dicta parenti (169): synchysis.
    - tum gelidus toto manabat corpore sudor (175): chiasmus; also, cf. aut cruor hic de stipite manat (43).
    - tendoque supinas / ad caelum cum voce manus (176-7): cf. et caelo palmas cum voce tetendit (II.688).
    - seque novo veterum deceptum errore locorum (181): synchysis.
    - tum memorat (182): cf. sic memorat (I.631).
    - casus Cassandra canebat (183): emphatic alliteration.
    - nunc repeto haec generi portendere debita nostro (184): synchysis; also, I wasn't sure what was going on here, but apparently you need to understand Cassandra as a direct object and portendere is acting as an imperfect.
    - cedamus Phoebo et moniti meliora sequamur (188): cf. 115 (chiastic arrangement, jussives framing the line).
    - paucisque relictis: the consensus seems to be as an explanation for the settlement of Pergamum; but I like that it could also be referring to those who died while in Crete (Perkell).
    - vastumque cava trabe currimus aequor (191): chiasmus emphasizing the sea's vastness.

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