Bone Deus, Carrane erit ne aliquando finis mendaciorum & calumniarum

By Bruodinus, in 'Latin to English Translation', Oct 9, 2014.

  1. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    An appositive not matching the case of its antecedent would be rather non-standard as far as Latin grammar goes. Maybe it's possible in the period of this text, but I'm somewhat doubtful because the rest of the grammar seems pretty standard otherwise.
    Bruodinus likes this.
  2. Bruodinus Member

    Thank you both very much for your efforts in this. It reads well and is clear!
    Most impressed!
  3. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    You're welcome!

    That is a good point
    Perhaps the second comma was in error
  4. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    To be honest, it's still not all that well and clear to me. It would be interesting to know more of the historical context, as it would surely help us to tease apart some of the loose strings (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor) of the translation. The idea of Carranus using cow manure as plaster is intriguing, and I wonder what exactly his relation was to the writer and to the MacBrodies (if that is indeed the proper translation of Bruodini).

    I'm hoping someone else like Aurifex or Pacis puella might have some further ideas on the precise meaning of some of the weirder bits.
  5. Bruodinus Member

    Yes the translation is McBrody. Carranus' real name was Thomas Carve and he wrote a book that was disparaging toward previous remarks made by Bruodinus, including remarks about the sort of buildings which were then in use by his family. So they were in contention with each other - hence the nasty comments!
  6. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm sorry but I don't have many more ideas about what transtraque e navibus furaris, ut ope tuae falcis a Bruodinis Mandras construas really means. Even grammatically I'm not sure how a Bruodinis fits. My feeling is that it should modify construas rather than falcis, but...

    For the rest your translation looks ok to me.

    Edit: Except, shouldn't it be "houses" rather than "shrines"?
    Last edited by Pacis puella, Oct 10, 2014
  7. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris

    Do you think that makes better sense in the context? I figured he was talking about medieval Catholic shrines (like reliquaries and such) because of the mention of clergymen frequenting them.
    Bruodinus likes this.
  8. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Clergymen aren't the only ones mentioned, but all kind of important people. But I'm not sure actually.
    Bruodinus likes this.
  9. Bruodinus Member

    Yes I am confused on this point - I assumed he meant 'houses' as that would link back to what he was previously saying and throwing scorn on Thomas Carve's view of what he had previously written about the types of dwellings in Thomond.

    Earlier in the text it also states: ut legitur in Bruodinorum Chronicis, & refert Milerus Juvenis mac Bruodin, seu de Bruodino, in Elogijs O Brienoram.

    I translate this as:

    'as we read and is reported in the Bruodin chronicles by Milerus the younger Mac Bruodin, otherwise the Bruodin, and eulogist of O’Brien'

    Happy for any corrections/comments to my translation above.:)
  10. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    I'd suggest something like: "as can be read in the Chronicles of the Bruodins, and as young Miller MacBruodin, or son of Bruodin, mentions in the sayings/inscriptions/epitaphs of the O'Briens." This is assuming the reading is Elogiis and not Eulogiis. Without more context it's difficult to say how best to translate Elogiis.
    Bruodinus likes this.
  11. Bruodinus Member

    Hello ,
    many thanks for that Aurifex. ;) It's a good translation.
    Just two points. I am not sure about the translation 'or the son of'.... To me, sue de Bruodino, refers to his holding of family title, 'otherwise/or the [Mac] Bruodin'. Or to say it in a long-winded way, 'otherwise the head of the [Mac]Bruodin family. What do you think?

    My other points concerns Elogijs (this is the spelling). In the text it is used many times to mean either poet or eulogist. This makes perfect sense in the context, as the McBrodin were a family of poets whose chief patrons were the O'Briens. But I can see also your reading of this for Elogijs ......does anyone else have a view on this?
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I don't think filius is implied but I rather think that sive de Bruodino just indicates the Latin variant of the name McBruodin. "MacBruodin or (in Latin) de Bruodino".
    I don't thing e(u)logium can mean "poet" or "eulogist".
  13. Bruodinus Member

    thank you - good points! And thanks for coming into the debate:)

    ok so how about this then:

    ....'as can be read in the Chronicles of the Bruodins, and as young Milerus MacBruodin, the [Mac]Broudin, mentions in the eulogies of O’Brien’....

    I am still not sure if it is saying that it is 'mentioned' in the eulogies/epitaphs though. Any other views on the word refert and how it should be read in this context?
  14. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    There's no "the", but there's an "or" (sive). Sive de Bruodino = "or de Bruodino" - it was just there to give the Latin variant of the name.
    Here it can only mean something like "relates", "recounts", "mentions"...
  15. Bruodinus Member

    Brilliant - thank you for clearing that up Pacis Puella, much obliged indeed.:)
  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    No problem.
  17. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    Mac is the Irish word for 'son', though of course here it doesn't literally mean 'son of Brody' any more than 'Williamson' means 'son of William'. I think the preposition de is an attempt to render the force of it in Latin without translating it literally as filius, since that isn't a common naming convention in Latin.
  18. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    Yes, that was my thinking too.
    I could have left it as "or de Bruodino", as you suggest, but I was aiming to translate everything into English.
    That looks OK, with allowances made for the seu de Bruodino bit. "O Brienoram" possibly reads "O Brienorum" and should perhaps be translated "the O'Briens" rather than "O'Brien". A singular O'Brien is ambiguous to me, suggesting the eulogies may relate to the O'Brien family as a whole or just one O'Brien. I couldn't say for sure what the intended meaning of elogiis is.

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