?

Should the UK vote to leave the EU?

I have a vote and I'm voting to remain 4 vote(s) 19.0%
I have a vote and I'm voting to leave 2 vote(s) 9.5%
I have a vote and I'm undecided 0 vote(s) 0.0%
I have no vote, but would vote to remain 7 vote(s) 33.3%
I have no vote, but would vote to leave 4 vote(s) 19.0%
I have no vote, and don't know what I'd do 3 vote(s) 14.3%
I never participate in polls like this 1 vote(s) 4.8%
  1. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    I was thinking of her first speech as Prime Minister and all the
    business. A nominal bow of the head to a few tropes.

    Perhaps fortunately, I've never been to America.
  2. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    You're becoming excited and heated. I think it's best we leave it be.
  3. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    What you ask of me is ridiculous hence the reason I answer by consulting an imaginary crystal ball. I cannot tell you exactly why people gravitate toward a political philosophy, only that it's either normally ideologically or financially driven (which I've already said in a previous post).

    You know I do find it rich that you demand answers and that for some bizarre reason the onus is on myself to defend the hows and whys, considering you give nothing by way of anything yourself, not an answer, a photo, your real name, your life, nowt.

    I know nothing about you and yet here you are with all of these demands.
  4. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    You're free to post or not, as you wish. Claiming to be able to divine the emotions of one's opponents is as shabby a trick as attributing arguments to them. There is no substance to your arguments, just the eternal whining against the damnable iniquity of Them.

    For those unfamiliar with British politics, I couldn't have asked for a more textbook gammon exposition of Brexit. The people who voted to leave had no clear notion of what the European Union did, or what they would gain by leaving it, but they wanted to smash things. They were manipulated by trash media like the Daily Mail, and trash politicos like Nigel Farage, into directing their hatred towards Them. And the wondrous thing is that They can be whoever you want them to be at any given moment. Whether it's immigrants, the New World Order, your annoying line manager or the smartarse down the pub – they are all profiting, in some mysterious way, from the European Union in ways equally mysteriously deinied to the gammon, and even if Brexit will bring the country to a grinding halt, it'll all be worth it to get back at Them. But it won't be that bad, really it won't, because we'll all be riding our unicorns through the sunlit uplands.
  5. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    You suggested we 'leave it', yet even before I've had the opportunity to disobey your injunction, you're back with this bizarre rant. What do photos have to do with the argument? Surely you know enough about debate by now to have some idea how it works: someone is for something, someone is against it, they state why they're for or against it and respond to arguments of their opponent. As you obviously don't enjoy this, I suggest you do something you enjoy more. There's some footie tonight, I hear, so the pubs should already be full of jolly people shouting 'Come on Ingerlund' – which coincidentally is the most articulate exposition of post-Brexit strategy you'll ever get from the gammon.
  6. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    This is becoming both embarrassing and humorous. If ever I'm down south we should meet up for a drink, obviously not in one of those champagne bars you're wont to frequent but say, a wetherspoons!
  7. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Sure, but I'm certain I've said before I'm not a socialist, and don't drink champagne. Though I've probably been in most of the Wetherspoons in London, as they have reliable wifi, coffee and formerly quiz machines, I'd recommend something with a bit more atmosphere. If you're down here when the Times crossword championships are taking place, you could come along to the festivities at the George near London Bridge – I'm not anywhere good enough to compete, but these are proper sporting events, covered by the BBC, with supporters in colours chanting for their heroees and pavilions for spectators.
  8. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    OK, I lied about the BBC and the colours, but there is a championship in November, and there used to be provision for spectators. I'm not sure if there is nowadays, but the main venue for hangers-on is the pub.
  9. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Are you a crossword groupie to an ace face or a competitor or just a watcher?
  10. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    and the greatest crossword setter I know of is Bunthorne, whom I never met and who died some years ago, as did Araucaria more recently. Perhaps someday I'll be able to persuade the BBC to cover it, ideally on radio ('And we can now see Richard Dunstable writing something in the upper-right-hand corner...oh no! He's rubbing it out again!)
    Pacifica likes this.
  11. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Yes I read you're not anywhere good enough to compete but still wondered if you did but with a view of never winning a match.
  12. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    There's only one winner, because the same person takes the prize year after year. (He also wins sudoku championships.) Everyone else is playing for second. But I've never taken part, or even entered.

    Anyway, back to Brexit. In the good old days the events of the past week, what with the Trump circus adding spice to the mix, would have been sensational, but nowadays it's just normal.

    I think the tide has turned now, though. With a former Tory cabinet minister calling for a second referendum, nobody can ignore the fact that it's an omnishambles, and with any luck there's an end in sight to this lunacy. As someone on Twitter said, 'Brexit is like watching your library burned down by people who never learned to read.'
  13. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    I'm not sure if Theresa May would call a second referendum. If it went the wrong way for her, she would likely have to resign, like Cameron. Indeed, if the options offered were 'leave without a deal', 'stay', or 'leave with May's deal', she would be more certain to lose than Cameron was, unless some sort of AV system was used.

    I don't know what the result of a second referendum would be, though. I imagine that lots of people who formerly supported it would change their minds and vote against it after seeing the complete chaos that ensued last time; others, perhaps, who formerly voted against it might think that since they had spent so much time preparing for it, it might as well happen. Admittedly I would vote the same way as before, since the reasons I had then have not substantially changed. But the margin was so tiny in the last one that it's not easy to tell.
  14. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    This was the premise by which the British went to the ballot. I'm not in favour of a do-over anyway as it makes referendums pointless but even if this was to happen all EU member states would have to agree. Now I've not taken much of an interest of late so I suppose one could argue that members would concur to this so it's just a matter of time to let a few more brexiteers die off and go for a second referendum where Westminster will hopefully get the answer they're looking for, irrespective of the party in power. Dunno.
  15. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    That said, I think we're supposed to be out by next year sometime whatever, unless the goalposts have moved on this too. To be honest, I've lost interest in it for the most part as the last 2 years have been pretty predictable, unfortunately for people like me anyway.
  16. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Yes, and in retrospect it was a pretty stupid way to phrase the question, but it wasn't supposed to be serious: Cameron thought that by granting a referendum he could be rid of pests like Boris; Boris thought that by nobly losing he could get one over on Cameron in his quest to be PM.

    They'd both overestimated the intelligence of the public, as it transpired. The majority of those who voted were obviously in favour of leaving, because Brexit means Brexit, but everyone had their own ideas about what this actually meant. The mystics thought they could ride their unicorns into the sunlit uplands, and simply dismissed inconvenient facts as part of the vast conspiracy they've always imagined is against them. Those who understood that flouncing meant suicide realised that trading with the EU on its terms but without any influence was rather worse than where we'd been before. Meanwhile, it's hard for the sane ones not to regret this waste of, well, everything over the past two years.
  17. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    I imagine you think those assumptions are rather insightful but to me they sound trite. I'll agree with you on that final sentence though.
  18. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    There was a joke making the rounds that we could fix this whole mess by not leaving the EU, but telling the Brexiters we did. Maybe it wasn't a joke.
  19. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Etaoin Shrdlu do you ever listen to LBC? The phone calls are hilarious on a consistent basis.
  20. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Indeed. We have listened to the voice of the people, and they have said wibble.

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