Cecoderit, ingredi ac moveri

By Jennifer Jessica, in 'Latin to English Translation', Mar 11, 2013.

  1. "ac" seemed a bit strong to me. But, really, I may be mistaken.

    So, do you literally think that this person is telling someone to fall? No, it's clearly a metaphor here, and I think that the idea of "being thrown down or under" (subjecta) might render that metaphor more safely. I think the underlying idea is something like, "if you have been defeated" or "if you have failed." "Fall" might work here in Latin, but I would have to see a precedent. When I briefly looked at the verb "cado" in Lewis and Short, I could not find the word used in this sense.



    You're right here. I was confusing the constructions of "surgo" [< sub-rego] with its relative "erego," [< e-rego] which is transitive and whose passive is used to mean "to get up." "erecta" means "having gotten up," and that's the word I should have used. I just picked up the suggested "resurgere" from the original translation. "erigo" may be a better verb for this than "surgo."


    And, in a series of three or more things, Latin typically puts a conjunction between every item in the series; it's a modern thing to put only one conjunction before the last item. uinum et lac et mel, NOT uinum, lac, et mel.
    Last edited by Californiensis, Mar 21, 2013
  2. "concido" might better get the notion of "falling" as a defeat or failure.
  3. First off, Pacis Puella, I think your Latin is very good. Clearly, it is much more confident than mine.

    My instinct is to search for precedents in good Latin before I suggest translations for modern slogans. In fact, my experience is that literal translations don't work, usually.

    I would be o.k. with
    "cade sed erecta perge"

    Perhaps this is better:
    cade, surge, perge.
    Or
    cade, resurge, perge.

    (I'm not sure that "[re]surge" is semantically correct in this composition; I'd have to investigate its use more.)

    My biggest problem remains with "cado."

    Let me try to explain. In English, we have two synonyms, "fall" and the intransitive use of "drop." I think that the difference is that "drop" implies volition and "fall" implies lack of volition. When I drop, I want to drop; when I fall, I don't want to fall.

    If I substitute "drop" for the "fall" of this phrase, it doesn't work for me any more.
    "fall, get up, and move on" does not quite mean the same as "drop, get up, and move on."

    The semantic ranges of words are very tricky, and I'm not sure I understand what "cado" would mean here. I fear that the most obvious meaning to a Latin speaker would be "to die." I'm not sure. "cado" probably will work because this is an extended metaphor through three verbs, but my Latin is not good enough to know. "cado" is actually fairly rare in prose; instead, its compounds are used in prose: concido, incido, decido, and so on; it's more common in poetry, and that complicates the picture.
  4. By the way, Pacis Puella, your English is awesome! How did you learn it so well?
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes, it is a metaphor, but metaphors are not forbidden in Latin. Now it seems indeed that the imperative cade wasn't that widely used - I searched in the Latin library and got no result. On the other hand, as we're asked for translations by modern people, we're bound to have to say things that weren't exactly said in Latin before... Now to tell the truth, I never asked myself the question whether an imperative could be used in Latin "figuratively" like here - not really ordering the person. I'd like to know what others think of it actually ( Aurifex, Imber Ranae ?). If the imperative is really a problem, I'd simply go for si cecideris, resurge ac perge. If you fall, get up and go on.
    After a quick look at my dictionary, it seems like concido is even more specifically what you wanted to avoid, that is "to die" - that's its first definition. Whereas that of cado is simply "to fall" (figurative meanings like "to die" coming only later).
    Resurgere = to rise again, get up again (stresses the fact that you used to be up, then fell, then get up again. It really seems the most appropriate to me).
    Honestly I don't know whether it's more common in poetry, but looking only in my dic (I'll just copy the first definition for each one):

    Concido, as I said = To fall down (especially in dying), to collapse. So that's no what we need.

    Incido = To fall or drop (into), to throw oneself or rush (into). (Precisely the meaning "to drop" which you were talking about.) Not what we need either.

    Decido: to fall down (from a position), fall off. Not so bad as the other ones, but we're not especially talking about a high position here. Just about someone who's on one's feet, then falls.

    Cado: (of persons or things initially in contact with the ground or not) To fall over, assume a prostrate or recumbent position, collapse. I think that's the best one.
    So may I, I suppose. It's always difficult to tell which one of et, ac/atque or -que is the best one to use in a given context, because in our languages we've got one only word for all of them, which is "and" (for me in French "et"). But according to my dic again, one of its uses is "to connect the preliminary action with the main action or purpose" (and gives examples, among which some with imperatives). It seemed to me that here "get up" is some kind of a preliminary action to the purpose that is "to go on". But of course et would be completely ok too.
    Thank you...! I learnt it by a correspondence course (finished some two years ago).
    Last edited by Pacis puella, Mar 21, 2013
  6. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    I think in cade, resurge ac perge there aren't three separate items but only two: cade and resurge ac perge. And atque/ac can't connect more than two items anyway (at least in prose). Adversative asyndeton seems to be a natural choice to separate these two very different kinds of commands.

    I can't really fathom why one would command themselves to fall in the first place, however. The sentiment of the OP is strange to me, so I can't answer to the semantics behind it.
    Last edited by Imber Ranae, Mar 21, 2013
  7. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I think the sentiment is like "let you fall/you may fall, but whatever, get up and go on."
  8. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    Unless cade, resurge, perge are intended as commands addressed to a soldier in training, for example - to fall to the ground deliberately and then proceed with his march - I suppose the OP's intention is for cade to be interpreted as a kind of conditional. The imperative does sometimes function as a protasis, especially in comedy, but it is nearly always (and logically so) followed by future indicative:
    tange! adfligam ad terram te - Plaut., Rudens, 1010

    In our case I don't see how imperative cade could function as a protasis, and think it would have to be interpreted as a direct command. Unless the OP has the aforementioned military context in mind, cade is almost certainly not going to give the meaning required, viz "if you fall". Maybe though there is some other context I haven't thought of in which these three 2nd person commands would be logically combined.
  9. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    You could conceivably use a concessive hortatory subjunctive for that, to function as a kind of protasis, but I'm having difficulty imagining an imperative being used this way in Latin.
    Californiensis likes this.
  10. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    So, this:
    (By the way, couldn't future imperatives be used here?) Or...
    Sorry I've got a little problem of terminology understanding there, but you mean: cadas, resurge ac perge??
  11. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    Yeah, they could. Might even be more natural...
    Yes, that's what I meant. I've never seen a concessive subjunctive followed by an imperative like this before, though, so I'm still far from recommending it.
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    So:
    Si cecideris, resurgito ac pergito.
    If you fall, get up and go ahead.
  13. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    But maybe the idea is "it is permitted to fall, but if you do, you must get up and go on"? But I feel like something of the kind licet te cadere, sed si cecideris, resurgito ac pergito would be a bit longish and weird maybe...
    Californiensis likes this.
  14. Which brings us naturally to "licet cecideris" (perfect subjunctive because the action is before the getting up), with "licet" + subjunctive meaning "although," which is pretty much the same as "cum cecideris," which was suggested before. :)

    That being said, this whole notion of using an imperative in place of a concessive clause or a protasis is intriguing. We do this frequently in colloquial English. "Do that and I'll kill you!" = "If you do that, I'll kill you." "Make that claim; it's not true" = "Although you make that claim, it's not true." I have found a few parallels in Latin, but I'll have to investigate it more.
    Last edited by Californiensis, Mar 22, 2013
  15. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    "Although you have fallen" doesn't mean the same thing as "you may fall" or "(even) if you fall".

    "Though you have fallen" means that you have already fallen, and I don't think that's the idea.

    Anyway, I think we need more precision from Jennifer Jessica on what she actually means. Does she really order the person to fall? Does she mean "it is permitted for you to fall (it's not a crime), but then you must get up and go on"? Or simply "if you fall, get up and go on"?

    ( Jennifer Jessica , quand tu dis "tombe, relève-toi et continue", est-ce que tu ordonnes vraiment à la personne de tomber (parce que ça nous paraît bizarre), ou est-ce que l'idée est plutôt "il est permis de tomber, tu peux tomber, mais après relève-toi et continue" ou bien simplement "si tu tombes, relève-toi et continue"? Si tu ordonnes vraiment à la personne de tomber, tu veux qu'elle tombe, alors ma première traduction est correcte, mais si l'idée est plutôt l'une des deux autres, un impératif ne peut pas exprimer ça en latin, donc on a besoin de plus de précision sur ce que tu veux dire pour pouvoir trouver la meilleure traduction.)
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  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    In fact licet + subj. can also mean "even if" in the future, I now remember I've already seen it used that way (with present subjunctive = if you do, so it is "even if you have fallen" instead, subj. perfect make sense.) But I don't think "even if" is meant here either actually, maybe just a simple "if", but let's wait for her to reply.
    Californiensis likes this.
  17. Cambrinus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Anglia
    Faites-vous ainsi: lapsa resurge (si vous vous commandez?) ou bien lapsa resurgo (si vous parlez de vous-même).
  18. Jennifer Jessica New Member

    C'est + dans l'esprit : "il est permis de tomber, tu peux tomber, mais après relève-toi et continue" ou bien simplement "si tu tombes, relève-toi et continue"

    Désolée de ma réponse tardive mais je n'ai plus d'ordinateur pour quelque temps ... J'ai un peu de mal à suivre tout le débat j'avoue, je touche mes limites en anglais !!
  19. Manus Correctrix QVAE CORRIGIT

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Victoria
    Yes, I think it was always pretty obvious that the first imperative was not a literal command. I believe that we have already discussed the use of the imperative in a conditional sense on this forum and decided that you can do it in Latin just as in modern languages.

    Cade, resurge, perge.

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