Collect for Trinity XXI

By Patricius, in 'Religious Latin Phrases', Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Patricius New Member

    If, as is likely, this is a stupid question, I apologize in advance.

    "Largire, quaesumus, Domine, fidelibus tuis indulgentiam placatus et pacem...."

    The English version is "Grant, we beseech thee, merciful Lord, to thy faithful people pardon and peace...."

    What is the function of "placatus" here? If it is modifying "Domine" and translating "merciful," why does it not have to be in vocative form? And for that matter is "placatus" a reasonable translation for "merciful" (or "merciful" for "placatus," since I'm not sure whether the English or Latin Prayer Book came first)?
  2. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Placatus is in the nominative because it agrees with the implied subject of largire rather than with the vocative. The meaning is literally "Having been placated, grant, O Lord, to thy faithful..." He is to grant forgiveness and peace (while/after) having been placated: placatus goes with the verb and agrees with the subject thereof. Largire, Domine placate..., on the other hand, would have meant literally "Grant, O placated Lord..."

    The translation of placatus to "merciful" and especially as a vocative is free-ish, I would say, but perhaps acceptable.
    Last edited by Pacifica, Nov 2, 2018
    Gregorius Textor likes this.
  3. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    The sense is basically that you are asking the Lord to be placated and, thus placated, to grant forgiveness etc.

    Placatus has adverbial force inasmuch as it denotes the circumstances in which the action of the verb is to be done.

    Maybe the difference between this and a vocative will be made clearer if I transpose the same concept into a simpler sentence, so take this, for example:

    Cane laetus, Marce! = "Sing joyous, Marcus!" i.e "Sing (while being) joyous, Marcus!", "Be joyous and sing, Marcus!", "Sing joyously, Marcus!"

    whereas

    Cane, laete Marce! = "Sing, O joyous Marcus!"
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  4. Patricius New Member

    First of all, thank very much for your thoughtful and illuminating reply. So, to be sure that I understand, let me ask, is "largire" then infinitive, effecting the sense "We beseech Thee, [Thou] being merciful to grant to thy faithful indulgence and peace...."? Is "Placatus" nominative because it acts as predicate nominative to the clause subject [Thou] in the clause "[Thou being] merciful." That is some fancy syntax. Latin is so absolutely seductive, that I fear it is destroying my character.
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    No, it is imperative. The infinitive would be largiri. (This verb is deponent.)
    Yes.
  6. Patricius New Member

    Thank you.
  7. Clemens New Member

    Sorry, what day is this collect for? My Roman missal counts Sundays after Pentecost, not Trinity.
  8. Issacus Divus Sunu Reordcyningas

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Gæmleflodland
    The Twenty-First Sunday after Trinity. (Terry S.)
  9. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I have an idea that Anglicans count from Trinity instead of Pentecost for obscure reasons to do with various rites, but I suspect that Terry knows more about this sort of thing than I ever will.
  10. Terry S. scurra

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    Location:
    Hibernia
    This guy is the real expert - and a :) classicist, too!

    https://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2009/07/post-trinitatem-post-pentecosten.html
    Abbatiſſæ Scriptor likes this.
  11. Patricius New Member

    The origin of the collect is the Gelasian Sacramentary. I encountered it in the Latin BCP. The 1971 "BCP" cannot rationally be so called since its sacramentology and dogmatics are obviously intentionally hostile to those of the historic book. Some of the "revisers" have now publicly admitted (not repentantly, but with a smirk) that they were never trying to revise the book, but to force a new theology on the Anglican Church. It didn't work: a third of Anglicans quit the Church immediately upon the suppression of the historic book, and most of the rest have drifted away over time. Dr. Ratzinger, at the time his papacy came to an end, was working on a compassionate program to provide haven to those fleeing the Anglican Church.
  12. Issacus Divus Sunu Reordcyningas

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Gæmleflodland
    I'm sorry to hear it. I haven't heard of something like that before.
  13. Clemens New Member


    Understood. I have the 1920 Missale Romanum, and was trying to look it up in that. I didn't know there was a Latin BCP.
  14. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    Pacifica's firſt reply invites the queſtion of why an ablative abſolute conſtruction was not uſed.
  15. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Because an ablative absolute refers to someone or something else than the subject.
  16. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    Pacifica's ſecond ſuggeſtion invited the queſtion of why an adverbial form of 'placatus' was not uſed. (Then again, the adverbial forms of thematic adjectives may be veſtiges of an inſtrumental caſe which did not completely abdicate in favour of the ablative. Ablative abſolutes equate to inſtrumental absolutes in other languages anyway.) My own firſt thought was to recall a recent diſcuſſion here on the occaſional fluidity of the relationſhip between the nominative and the vocatice. In any caſe, the original question was very far from 'ſtupid'.
  17. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I can't help thinking the adverb wouldn't really be appropriate in this sense.
  18. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes, I'm not sure the adverb would have been very idiomatic. The adjective has adverbial force in this case, though (or you can also call it predicative; it's the same).
  19. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1662/BCP_Latin1662.htm
    Thus the blame for 'placatus' would appear to fall on Meſſrs. Bright & Medd (though they might ſimply have been following older Latin verſions of the collect).

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