cuius belli civilis prope actium facto de fine poeta vergilius scripsit

By Bdizzle, in 'Latin Beginners', Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Bdizzle Member

    I have some quick questions about the relative clause and about 2 translations.

    cuius belli civilis prope actium facto de fine poeta vergilius scripsit:
    Translation: of which the poet Virgil wrote about the end of the civil war having been made near Actium

    questions: is the relative 's antecedent belli?
    is facto agreeing with fine?

    2nd sentence:
    in medio mari erant magnae copiae, plurimae naves. Quibus totum altum a Marte deo completum est.
    In the middle of the ocean was great forces, many ships. With these? the whole sea was filled by the god mars.

    Question: I'm not totally sure what the antecedent of quibus is - can an antecedent sit outside of a sentence. I thought with relative clauses they must always refer with something in the sentence itself.

    Thanks!
  2. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    This is very nearly correct, but you have here both the 'cuius' & the 'belli civilis' predicated on 'fine', as separate entities. A more Latin solution would be to treat this 'cuius' as an adjectival use of the correlative pronoun (common in prose), so that the unlovely English rendering would be:
    The poet Virgil wrote about the end of which civil war... etc.
    or better, let us pretend something precedes it.
    [And there was a civil war], the end of which (civil war) Virgil wrote about...
    Yes.
    Absolutely, and is common enough in writers like Livy. & lest I prattle endlessly about what makes a sentence a sentence, & a pronoun a pronoun, let it suffice to say that:
    Here, whether or not there is a period after 'naves' or a comma, the antecedent is definitely 'naves' (or 'copiae', but that's immaterial), & so a proper translation is:
    There were great forces in the middle (of the) sea, very many ships, with which (or 'whereby') all the deep was filled by the god Mars.
  3. Bdizzle Member

    Amazing - thank you for the comprehensive answer!
  4. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Nil sudoris, frater!
  5. Bdizzle Member

    One more question - tough translation
    What is Cui (Dative relative) referring too in this statement?

    Cui super caput flammae funduntur, stella patria videtur.
    Flames is the subject - Acc super caput
    The flames poured over (his) head, the father's star is seen.

    More context: here's the statement before:
    Hinc Augustustus Caesar qui in proelium Italos agebat cum patribus, populo, penatibus et magnis deis, in alta navi stabat.

    On this side Augustus Caesar, who was leading the Italians into battle with the senators, was standing on a tall ship for the people, pendants, and great gods.
  6. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    cui is referring to Augustus. It's a connecting relative (you can translate it as a form of is, ea, id if you want), hence why it refers to someone from the previous sentence. Same with quibus in your first post.
    That sentence is adapted from these Vergil lines:
    hinc Augustus agens Italos in proelia Caesar
    cum patribus populoque, penatibus et magnis dis,
    stans celsa in puppi, geminas cui tempora flammas
    laeta vomunt patriumque aperitur vertice sidus.
    This edition uses a comma rather than a period/semicolon to connect the cui relative clause to the rest of the sentence. That kind of thing is often up to the discretion of the editor.
  7. Bdizzle Member

    Thank you for the clarification

    So would the sentance read?
    To whom the flames poured over the head...
  8. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Well, yes, that would be to render the Latin clear, but rather un-English. A perfectly good translation would be:
    ... over whose head the flames poured...
    The usage found in cui is generally called the 'dative of reference' (also 'dative of interest'). It has essentially been the standard function of the dative since the so-called Proto-Indo-European period.

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