Ex quo patet, subiectum de quo hic agitur esse Diligentes Deum.

By MichaelJYoo, in 'Latin to English Translation', Aug 3, 2019.

  1. MichaelJYoo New Member

    In a sentence like this, why isn't esse conjugated to "est?" Because wouldn't the subject of subiectum be esse? So shouldn't it be est? How would this sentence translate literally?
  2. MichaelJYoo New Member

    Also, the next sentence following says, "Conclusionem, talibus omnia adversa, non tantum non obesse, sed in bonum cedere." My guess is that there is parallelism between these two sentences with the use of the infinitives? How are they to be translated though?
  3. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    Ex quo patet, subiectum de quo hic agitur esse Diligentes Deum = From this it is clear that the subject here treated is those who love God.

    Conclusionem, talibus omnia adversa, non tantum non obesse, sed in bonum cedere = [and that] the conslusion [is] that for such people, any adversity not only does no harm, but even turns into good. (This actually continues the previous line and still depends on patet/"it is clear"; esse is implied with conclusionem).

    Have you ever heard of the accusative-and-infinitive construction in indirect statements? This is what we've got here in subjectum... esse, conclusionem (esse) and omnia adversa... cedere. The basics of it are explained here.
    Last edited by Pacifica, Aug 3, 2019
  4. MichaelJYoo New Member

    No I have not heard about it until now. Thanks for posting that. However, I'm a little bit confused. The next sentence in the book that I am reading definitely follows the accusative-infinitive construction, yet it is inconsistent: "At si ex hoc loco colligitur, Deum certas quasdam singulares personas nominatim eligere & destinare ad fidem atque ad dilectionem, subiectum Apostoli mutatur."

    That post said that if the verb in the direct statement is passive the infinitive(s) must also be passive. However, "colligitur" is passive, and yet "eligere" and "destinare" are present active infinitives.
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    By "the direct statement", the author of the post meant the direct-statement version of what's put in that accusative and infinitive.

    Here, the direct statement would be: Deus certas quasdam singulares personas nominatim eligit & destinat ad fidem atque ad dilectionem.

    The verbs eligit and destinat are active, so they must (logically enough) be turned into active infinitives (eligere and destinare) in the indirect statement: Deum certas quasdam singulares personas nominatim eligere & destinare ad fidem atque ad dilectionem.

    Now, if you had a direct statement with a verb in the passive and wanted to turn this into an indirect statement, you'd need to use the passive infinitive. For example:

    Direct statement: Boni a Deo diliguntur.
    Indirect statement: Dicunt bonos a Deo diligi.

    Whether the verb that introduces the indirect speech (colligitur in your sentence) is active or passive has no bearing on the voice of the infinitive in the indirect statement.
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  6. MichaelJYoo New Member

    Thank you so much for all your help! What is the best way to learn Latin fast? So far I've been trying to just translate the Latin text rather than go through an entire book, but if there is a better way to gain vocab and grasp syntax fast I'd love to hear it.

    If you could help me one more time, I would appreciate it so much: "At vero Apostolum haec verba, Qui secundum propositum vocati sunt, tantum ponere dicendum est, aut priorem suam Thesin absolute positam in dubiam vocare."

    What is "tantum ponere dicendum est" referring to? I notice that Apostolum is in the accusative which made me consider whether this is an indirect statement but I don't think it is anymore. And what is Thesin?
  7. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    I don't know. When people ask me what's the best way to learn Latin, I tell them to start by either taking a course or picking up a textbook and working through it from cover to cover, but how fast that would go would depend on many factors, like how gifted you are for languages, how motivated you are, and how much time you've got on your hands. I don't know of any specific "express" way to learn Latin.
    There is indeed an indirect statement here. Dicendum est apostolum... ponere... aut... vocare.
    Last edited by Pacifica, Aug 3, 2019
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  8. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    Sorry, missed this.

    Thesin = accusative of thesis (a Greek borrowing, with a Greek accusative ending, which is why it looks unusual for Latin).
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  9. MichaelJYoo New Member

    So that phrase "Dicendum est" is the signifier that this is indeed an indirect statement? How would it be translated here? It could be a gerund, a future passive participle modifying Apostolum, or it could be a passive periphrastic. I still have no idea what this sentence would read. Sorry, I hate to ask you so many questions.
  10. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    Dicendum is a gerundive (sometimes wrong-ishly called future passive participle) but not modifying apostolum. It's impersonal.

    Dicendum est = it is to be said/it must be said/one must say...
  11. Pacifica grammaticissima

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  12. MichaelJYoo New Member

    Please help me again, if you will. Can you use the accusative-infinitive construction at will? Isn't it only used in indirect statements?

    In the work I'm reading, a syllogism is responded to with this sentence, "Maiorem syllogismi falsam esse." However, another syllogism a little while later is responded to by saying, "Maior syllogismi falsa est." How is the one an indirect statement whereas the other is not that allows it to be put in an infinitive-accusative construction? Because they seem to be saying the same thing.
  13. MichaelJYoo New Member

    Please help me again, if you will. Can you use the accusative-infinitive construction at will? Isn't it only used in indirect statements?

    In the work I'm reading, a syllogism is responded to with this sentence, "Maiorem syllogismi falsam esse." However, another syllogism a little while later is responded to by saying, "Maior syllogismi falsa est." How is the one an indirect statement whereas the other is not that allows it to be put in an infinitive-accusative construction? Because they seem to be saying the same thing.
  14. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    The accusative-infinitive construction isn't used "at will". It isn't used exclusively in indirect statements, either. There are a few other situations where it is used.

    However, what you've got there could be an indirect statement. There must be something in the passage in question that justifies the construction — some verb that it's implicitly dependent on, or something like that. Can you post the few preceding sentences so I can tell you what it is that justifies the construction?
  15. MichaelJYoo New Member

    For the first one, the preceding few sentences are:

    "Verumtamen existimant quidam, priorem illam interpretationem de portis inferni, stabiliri posse his argumentis:
    1. Quidquid adversatur aedificationi Ecclesia super petram, vel constatni adhaesioni ad Christum, illud intelligitur per portas inferorum praevalentes. His enim verbis, non praevalebunt portae inferorum, removet Christus contrarium illius, quod ante posuerat, super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam.
    2. Atqui fraudulentae & dolosae tentationes Satanae ad seductionem fidelium efficaces adversantur maxime huic aedificationi, constanti adhaesioni ad Christum. Ergo.
    Resp. (Respondemus). Maiorem syllogismi falsam esse."

    The second:

    "Quidquid egreditur ex portis inferorum, velinde principium suum habet, illud per hanc phrasin intelligi debet. Sed tentationes Diaboli egrediuntur ex portis. Ergo.
    Resp. Maior falsa est.
  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    OK, then the author simply chose, in the first case, to make his statement dependent on respondemus, like:

    We reply that the major premise is false.

    While in the second case, he chose to make it direct speech, more like:

    We reply: "The major premise is false."
  17. MichaelJYoo New Member

    I see. Thanks! In what other situations is an accusative-infinitive construction used?
  18. Bitmap Civis Illustris

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    - with verbs of sensual perception like audire or videre, sentire where I wouldn't call the AcI an indirect statement
    - likewise with verbs of affection like dolere or laetari
    - as the subject of a sentence with an impersonal verb such as constat or necesse est.
    - as an exclamation (Tene haec ferre posse!) (Att. 9,13,8)
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    To return to the first Latin sentence in this thread, I'm not sure an accusative-infinitive clause after patet is exactly an indirect statement, either, actually (it probably belongs more to the third category in your post); but well, it's a similar principle...
    Or potentially as the subject of any verb, really, though I guess est is about the only one with which it's very common aside from impersonal verbs.
    Last edited by Pacifica, Aug 7, 2019
  20. MichaelJYoo New Member

    So the accusative-infinitive construction of the original sentence is as the subject of an impersonal verb?

    In a sentence like this, "Christum & Apostolos toti populo sine ullo discrimine, no potuisse annunciare eam esse divinam voluntatem, ut omnes primitus vocati Evangelio crederent & ex fide obedientia & gratitudine Deo praestarent," does this belong to the first class? And if so, what word indicates it?

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