Fortune favors the brave

By Anonymous, in 'English to Latin Translation', May 20, 2006.

  1. Chamaeleo New Member

    Location:
    Melbourne
    Re: clarification: "FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE"

    As Matt has indicated, this question has been entirely answered before. If you still have points that need clarifying, ask on the thread in question. Creating a new thread reduplicates effort. Also, sending private messages about it is even worse.
  2. danielc New Member

    Re: clarification: "FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE"

    ok, sorry about that, thanks.
    :)
  3. danielc New Member

    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    These posts certainly clarify most things for me however i have one final question for CHAMÆLEO regarding what he said as per below...

    "Then there are modern conventions. We generally write in lower case; if we mark long vowels we do it consistently with the macron; we may make a u-v and i-j distinction; we may use ligatures on æ and œ in order to mark them as diphthongs, etc." quoted by CHAMÆLEO

    1. FORTES FORTUNA IUVAT (being the "original" with no distinctions)

    2. FORTES FORTVNA IVVAT (making ONLY the u-v distinction)

    3. FORTES FORTVNA JVVAT (making BOTH the u-v and i-j distinction)

    Am i correct in saying that you would either go for option 1 which is no distinctions or option 3 with both the u-v and i-j distinctions? As you dont see the point in only making one of the distinctions?
  4. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    Personally, I use both "u" and "v", but not "j". But, I am just using them as training wheels right now, and I plan to drop them when I feel ready to.

    But, with no distinctions, the quote would be: FORTES FORTVNA IVVAT.

    With only the u-v distinction, it would be: FORTES FORTUNA IUVAT (since the first "V" in iuvat is a vowel, and the second is a consonant).

    With both distinctions, it is: FORTES FORTUNA JUVAT.

    Now I have a question for anyone who can answer me: what is the difference between "adiuvat" and "iuvat"?
  5. danielc New Member

    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    Much appreciated Nick!!

    Nick, you mentioned that "AUDENTES" means "brave/bold" and that "FORTES" means "strong".
    From what i gather you are correct (herewith another reference to that): http://en.allexperts.com/q/Ancient-Lang ... ion-28.htm

    However CHAMÆLEO mentions the following: "One thing is the vocabulary choice between ‘audācēs’ (‘bold’), ‘audentēs’ (‘daring’), ‘fortēs’ (‘brave’), all of which can optionally end in -īs instead of -ēs."

    Could somebody help clarify which is which. ie: fortes and audentes?
  6. Chamaeleo New Member

    Location:
    Melbourne
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    What do you mean, ‘which is which’? I gave a definition of each. What more do you want? The words are largely synonymous here. And yes, ‘fortis’ can also mean ‘strong’.

    It doesn’t really matter whether you make the u-v and i-j distinctions or not. However, I will say that it is utterly senseless to make one distinction but not the other. You’ll see lots of people doing so, but they are very sadly misguided. It just makes no kind of sense whatsoever.

    The form that gives the most information to the reader is one such as ‘fortīs fortūna adjuvat’. Word boundaries are marked; long vowels are marked; semi-consonants are marked. I prefer this because you can take it and strip it down to ‘fortisfortunaadiuuat’ or whatever the hell you like, but if I gave you the latter, you would not be able to reconstruct the former without knowledge of the words involved. I give people the info. Do with it what you will.

    If, for fun, you want to make it look like an inscription, then use all caps, don’t use U or J, don’t use spaces (use medial dots instead, or nothing), don’t use macrons (you can use apices if the vowel length seems really important to you), don’t use punctuation, etc.

    In your PM to me, you said ‘I am having difficulty confirming which is the correct way to translate "FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE"’. This sort-of misses the point. It’s ‘fortune favours the brave’ that is the translation. Any of the various combinations and permutations mentioned in this thread can be considered to be the original from which this English translation derives. They are all correct, and were pretty much all attested in Classical Latin. Read above, and you’ll see that people like Cato and Cinefactus have specifically quoted the exact words used by certain authors, allowing you to choose exactly which variant you prefer. It’s pointless to ask which is ‘the right translation’ of your English phrase.
  7. danielc New Member

    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    CHAMÆLEO and all,

    Thank you for your assistance.

    I am going to go for this version:

    ‘fortīs fortūna adjuvat’

    last question is if i want medial dots in-between each word on above version would that still be correct?

    I also have a much better understanding now.

    Thanks to all - much appreciated -

    :)
  8. Chamaeleo New Member

    Location:
    Melbourne
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    You can if you like, but I’ve only seen them used in classical inscriptions.
  9. danielc New Member

    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    ok, i got it, that would go against my "theme" then...

    fortīs fortūna adjuvat (no medial dots)

    it is!

    cheers m8 :)
  10. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    From Lewis & Short:

    • fortis, e adj.; strong, powerful

      I. Physically (rare)

      II Mentally strong, powerful, vigorous, firm, steadfast, stout, courageous, brave, manly, etc., answering to the Gr. ἀνδρεῖος (very freq. in all periods and sorts of composition).

    The second meaning is predominant, especially with persons. There are other words in Latin to denote purely physical strength.
  11. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    In this context there is no appreciable difference, as is borne out by the fact that both variants appear in manuscripts.

    The only significant difference between the two words is that juvare has the additional (and older) meaning "to please, delight". So especially it is used impersonally with acc. + infin.: juvit me, tibi tuas litteras profuisse Cic. ad Fam. "It pleased me that your literary studies had profited you".

    Adjuvo is never used this way.
  12. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    Ah, okay. My textbook used it more for physical strength, and occasionally for mental strength. But, it was only a first year book, so I suppose it can be excused.

    And thanks for clearing up the adivvo/ivvo thing for me.
  13. danielc New Member

    Re: FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE. Help please

    Imber Ranae.
    Thank you very much for your post on my question and the link you provided.
    Much appreciated
    :)
  14. herbie New Member

    Hi Imber Ranae,

    I like the use of macron in "Fortīs fortūna adiuvat" and I am looking to get a tattoo the same on one side of my chest, on the other side I want "Omnia vincit amor" but wanted it in the same style with macrons if applicable.

    Is my wording correct? and how is it worded with macrons?

    Thanks very much for any help

    Steve
  15. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    No macrons are necessary in the second phrase, as they only mark long vowels. There are none in omnia vincit amor.
  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Also, macra are an artificial textbook thing rather than anything else, so you don't really need them in a tatoo or such things (at the time when people spoke Latin, they didn't exist - when they wanted to mark long vowels (which they often didn't), they used acute accents, and still nowadays in non-textbook Latin texts they are often not used) - but if you like it, nothing forbids. :)
    Matthaeus likes this.
  17. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    more precisely: apices (sing. apex). Yes, Romans knew how to pronounce their words so they usually didn't use those diacritical signs. It wasn't until the early medieval period, I think, that this use was developed. But I'm not sure, so don't quote me on that.
  18. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    It happened already much earlier - some here in inscriptions dating of the republic (Rómulus, Rómam, annós...), but not quite systematic; in a same inscription some long vowels are marked, others not. It also happened thay they wrote long vowels as double, but I think the practice was not that wide-spread.
    Imber Ranae likes this.
  19. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    Ah, ok thanks. You know much about inscriptions, to be sure. ;)
  20. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    The doubling of long vowels was an Old Latin practice, and died out before the Claſſical period. The use of apeces is Claſſical, but an proper apex is flatter than an acute accent and very much thinner. A macron , on the other hand, can be too eaſily confused with the vinculum used to mark an abbreviation.

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