Grammar of: factumque est vespere et mane, dies unus.

By bathtime, in 'Latin to English Translation', Dec 25, 2017.

  1. bathtime Member

    Thank you guys. I've read through all the replies, and for now, I'm going to say that Godmy, even if the translation does not seem to come out the most satisfying, seems most convincing; if I could get just one bit of info in print, I might be persuaded otherwise, but the fact that they are both in the ablative seems most likely so far.

    Wouldn't L&S (or Whitaker's words, Oxford Latin Dictionary—yes, checked them all, just on a hope...) have picked up on this if these were both in the nom? This phrasing pertaining to the morning, night, and the day which was created seems to repeat itself several times in Genesis, and my quote being mere words away from the very beginning of the bible—one of the most viewed Latin texts and used by priests for 1000 years—surely it has been under great scrutiny and would warrant such mention.

    I would like to hear a response as you mentioned Pacifica from the gentleman about how the Hebrew is declined.

    Thank you for the link Rothbard. :)
  2. Bestiola Speculatrix

    • Praetor
    • Praeco
    Not willing to take sides, but I've read in "The study of St Augustine's version of Genesis" commentary which says that vespere might be taken as an indeclinable noun just like mane, so Pacifica isn't the only one who took it like that.

    http://en.calameo.com/books/00010704455164c145c7b

    Page 101.
    bathtime likes this.
  3. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I've also found vespere as an indeclinable noun in some medieval Latin texts, though, admittedly, they're later than the Vulgate.

    In Aquinas:

    post vespere fit mane, ut dicitur Gen.1

    And in this poem:

    Sic mors vitam, risum luctus,
    Umbra diem, portum fluctus,
    Mane claudit vespere.

    Vespere, although originally the ablative of vesper, was felt pretty much as an adverb in the classical period, I think (the ablative case is an "adverbial" case, anyway), and as I said before, adverbials coming to be treated as nouns isn't something unheard of.

    Given as pretty much every translation of this verse treats this "evening" as a nominative noun, I can't see why one Latin translator would have suddenly gone mad and intentionally used something they felt as an adverb or ablative of time, producing a rather weird meaning; though if they did, again, perhaps something in the original will tell us why.
    Last edited by Pacifica, Dec 25, 2017
    Bestiola likes this.
  4. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    hmm wonder what portun refers to.
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    That was a typo in the text I copied. I've already corrected it (to portum, of course).
  6. bathtime Member

    I see that is says, "It may be interpreted as an indeclinable noun like mane," so it seems that even this scholar is not fully committed to saying it's true form else he'd have said it straight out without using may and interpreted.

    Perhaps this was right around the time when the change in grammar occured?

    *EDIT*

    I like the link, btw; the grammar section in the back looks like it might shed some light on other potential medieval differences.
  7. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Thanks for that input, ladies, I'll look into it (later), I may think about one more thing that could be checked...
  8. Bestiola Speculatrix

    • Praetor
    • Praeco

    I don't think anyone could be 100% sure of anything said in those times of such profound changes in Latin as a whole. The fact that vespere might have been attested for the first time in Vulgate doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't spoken already prior to that. Who knows, we might find some other document from that time also using vespere as an indeclinable noun, such things happen even now.
    Last edited by Bestiola, Dec 25, 2017
  9. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Alright, I made a study into most Jerome's writings for all his uses of the root "vesper-". I searched in his letters here http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/epist/index.htm and I searched in the whole Vulgate for other occurences than at the beginning of Genesis of this root.

    First, I present the data, I have included everything, I was not cherry picking. You can go through the data and make your own conclusion. Then I sum it up. At the end I give my own conclusion/opinion based on the data.
    _______________

    The Data:

    Epistola XXII
    - ...Dehinc consurgunt pariter, et hymno dicto, ad praesepia redeunt: ibi usque ad vesperam cum suis unusquisque loquitur, et dicit: Vidistis illum et illum?
    - ... Post haec quanquam Apostolus orare nos semper jubeat, ET SANCTIS etiam ipse sit somnus oratio, sic tamen divisas orandi horas debemus habere, ut si forte aliquo fuerimus opere detenti, ipsum nos ad officium tempus admoneat. Horam tertiam, sextam, nonam, diluculum quoque et vesperam, nemo est qui nesciat.
    Epistola L
    - Saepe de nocte usque ad vesperam contra nos in plateis clamavit: habet latera et athletarum robur, et belle corpulentus est.
    Epistola LX
    - "Ad Vesperam demorabitur fletus, et ad matutinum laetitia (Ps. 29. 6).
    - Nec virtutes, nec vitia parentum liberis imputantur. Ab eo tempore censemur, ex quo in Christo renascimur. Paulus persecutor Ecclesiae, et mane lupus rapax, Benjamin (Genes. 49), ad vesperam dedit escam, Ananiae ovi submittens caput (Act. 9).
    Epistola LXIX
    - Mirari satis non queo, quae hominum tanta sit caecitas, de uxoribus ante baptismum disputare; et rem in baptismate mortuam, imo cum Christo vivificatam in calumniam trahere, cum tam apertum evidensque praeceptum nemo custodiat. Heri catechumenus, hodie pontifex: heri in amphitheatro, hodie in Ecclesia; vespere in circo, mane in altario: dudum fautor histrionum, nunc virginum consecrator.
    X. Mansio
    - In hac solitudine murmurat populus propter famem, et conversus respicit procul in nube gloriam Dei; accepitque vespere coturnicem, et mane alterius diei manna (Num. 11).
    Epistola XCVIII
    - Et sic poterimus imminentium jejuniorum iter carpere. Incipient dies Quadragesimae a tricesima die mensis Mechir. Et hebdomadam salutaris Paschae celebrabimus quinta die mensis Pharmuti, finientes jejunia secundum Evangelicas traditiones vespere sabbati decima die Pharmuti: et illucescente statim Dominica, festa celebremus undecima die ejusdem mensis, jungentes et septem reliquas hebdomadas sanctae Pentecostes:
    Epistola C
    - 17. Incipient [al. incipientes] sanctae Quadragesimae jejunia ab undecima die mensis Phamenoth, et hebdomadae Dominicae passionis sextadecima die mensis Pharmuthi. Et finiemus jejunia vespere sabbati vicesima prima die ejusdem mensis Pharmuthi, et sequenti die Dominica Pascha celebrabimus [al. celebremus], vicesima et secunda die ejusdem mensis.
    Epistola CVIII
    - Post ALLELUIA cantatum (quo signo vocabantur ad Collectam) nulli residere licitum erat. Sed prima, seu inter primas veniens, caeterarum operiebatur adventum, pudore et exemplo ad laborem eas provocans, non terrore. Mane, hora Tertia, Sexta, Nona, Vespere, noctis medio, per ordinem Psalterium cantabant.
    Epistola CXII
    - Deus creavit ad utendum cum gratiarum actione; qui quartadecima die mensis primi agnum mactet ad vesperam; et cum hoc feceris, imo non feceris (scio enim te Christianum, et rem sacrilegam non esse facturum) velis nolis, tuam sententiam reprobabis: et tunc scies opere, difficilius esse confirmare sua, quam aliena reprehendere.
    Epistola CXX
    -* III. Quae causa sit, ut de resurrectione et apparitione Domini Evangelistae diversa narraverint. Et cur dicente Matthaeo, quod vespere sabbati illucescente in una sabbati Dominus surrexit, Marcus mane eum alterius diei asserat surrexisse.
    -** IV. Quomodo juxta Matthaeum, vespere sabbati Maria Magdalene vidit Dominum resurgentem; et Joannes Evangelista refert, mane una sabbati eam juxta sepulcrum flere.
    -*** V. Quomodo juxta Matthaeum, Maria Magdalene vespere sabbati cum altera Maria advoluta pedibus Salvatoris, secundum Joannem mane una sabbati audit a Domino: Noli me tangere; necdum enim ascendi ad Patrem.
    Hieronymus ad Hedibiam. de Quaestionibus XII
    - repetition of * from CXX
    - Hujus quaestionis duplex solutio est; aut enim non recipimus Marci testimonium, quod in raris fertur Evangeliis, omnibus Graeciae libris pene hoc capitulum in fine non habentibus, praesertim cum diversa atque contraria Evangelistis caeteris narrare videatur; aut hoc respondendum, quod uterque verum dixerit: Matthaeus, quando Dominus surrexerit vespere sabbati, Marcus autem, quando eum viderit Maria Magdalene, id est, mane prima sabbati.
    - ...prima sabbati, mane apparuit Mariae Magdalenae, ut qui vespere sabbati (juxta Matthaeum) surrexerat,
    - repetition of ** from CXX
    - Matthaeus enim scribit, Vespere sabbati, id est, sero, non incipiente nocte, sed jam profunda et magna ex parte transacta, apparuisse Dominum Mariae Magdalenae, et apparuisse vespere sabbati illucescentis in unam sabbati, seipsum interpretans quid dixisset, vespere sabbati, id est appopinquante jam luce sequentis diei.
    - Mihique videtur Evangelista Matthaeus, qui Evangelium Hebraico sermone conscripsit, non tam vespere dixisse, quam sero, et eum qui interpretatus est, verbi ambiguitate deceptum, non sero interpretatum esse, sed vespere.
    - Quanquam consuetudo humani sermonis teneat, sero non vesperum significare, sed tarde.
    - repetition of *** from CXX
    - Hac videlicet causa, quia vespere sabbati, quae lucescebat in prima sabbati, venit Maria Magdalene, et altera Maria videre sepulcrum.
    Epistola CXXX
    - Nunc tantum ad virginem loquar, id est non ea quae extra te, sed in te sunt, tantum considerans. Praeter psalmorum et orationis ordinem, quod tibi Hora Tertia, Sexta, Nona, ad Vesperum, Media nocte, et Mane semper est exercendum, statue quot horis sanctam Scripturam ediscere debeas;...
    Epistola CXL
    - Percutiente te eos, somnium erunt, mane quasi herba transiens. Mane floruit et abiit, ad vesperam conteretur atque siccabitur.
    - Mane sicut herba transeat, mane floreat et transeat, vespere decidat, induret, et arescat.
    - et repente dum nescit, incanescit caput, rugatur facies, cutis prius extenta contrahitur; et extremo fine, quod hic dicitur vespere, id est, senectute, vix moveri potest:
    - Sicut enim herba mane crevit, floruit et siccatur, ad vesperamque indurescit et deperit: ita erit omnis hominum pulchritudo.
    - cum anima fuerit a corpore segregata, vento similes avolamus; sive quia supra herbae virenti et florum pulchritudini, et ad vesperam siccitati hominem comparat: nunc pro ariditate vesperae, succisionem florum ponit.
    Epistola CXLVII
    - Deinde a vespere usque mane fenestrae illius assides, et quia propter altitudinem, haerere vobis cominus non licebat, per funiculum, vel accipis aliquid, vel remittis.
    Epistola CXLIX
    - Mense primo, X. die mensis agnus anniculus immaculatus segregari, et servari usque ad XIII. et XIV. a Domino praecipitur per Moysen occidi ab universo coetu filiorum Israel ad vesperum.
    - Et hoc etiam intueri debemus, quod non in XIV. die ad vesperum, ut lex praecipit, ille agnus Dei, qui tollit peccata mundi,...
    - ...in Evangelii perfectione quaterno numero consistentes carnes nostri agni in vespere mundi, in quo finis saeculorum pervenit,...

    Vulgate other occurences:
    1 Chronicles 23
    - Levitae vero ut stent mane ad confitendum et canendum Domino similiterque ad vesperam
    2 Chronicles 16
    - ut offerrent holocausta Domino super altare holocaustomatis iugiter mane et vespere iuxta omnia quae scripta sunt in lege Domini quam praecepit Israheli
    1 Esdras 9
    - et legebat in area quae est ante sacram portam templi a prima luce usque ad vesperam
    1 Kings 17
    - corvi quoque deferebant panem et carnes mane similiter panem et carnes vesperi et bibebat de torrente
    1 Kings 22
    - commissum est ergo proelium in die illa et rex Israhel stabat in curru suo contra Syros et mortuus est vesperi fluebat autem sanguis plagae in sinum currus
    1 Maccabees 9
    - exclamaverunt autem et hii qui erant ex parte Iudae etiam ipsi et commota est terra a voce exercituum et commissum est proelium a mane usque ad vesperam
    1 Maccabees 10
    - et cognovit Ionathas quoniam sunt insidiae post se et circuierunt castra eius a mane usque ad vesperam
    1 Samuel 14
    -...Saul populum dicens maledictus vir qui comederit panem usque ad vesperam donec ulciscar de inimicis meis et non manducavit universus
    1 Samuel 17
    -...procedebat vero Philistheus mane et vespere et stabat quadraginta diebus dixit autem Isai
    1 Samuel 20
    - ...vescendum dimitte ergo me ut abscondar in agro usque ad vesperam diei tertiae si requisierit me pater tuus
    1 Samuel 30
    - ... de terra Iuda et percussit eos David a vespere usque ad vesperam alterius diei et non evasit ex eis quisquam nisi
    2 Chronicles 2 -... aromata et ad propositionem panum sempiternam et holocaustomata mane et vespere sabbatis quoque et neomeniis et sollemnitatibus Domini Dei nostri
    2 Chronicles 13
    -... holocausta quoque offerunt Domino per singulos dies mane et vespere et thymiama iuxta legis praecepta confectum et proponuntur panes ... nos candelabrum aureum et lucernae eius ut accendantur semper ad vesperam nos quippe custodimus praecepta Domini Dei nostri quem vos
    2 Chronicles 18
    -... rex Israhel stabat in curru suo contra Syros usque ad vesperam et mortuus est occidente sole
    2 Chronicles 31
    -... ut de propria eius substantia offerretur holocaustum mane semper et vespere sabbatis quoque et kalendis et sollemnitatibus ceteris sicut scriptum
    2 Samuel 1:
    -... et planxerunt et fleverunt et ieiunaverunt usque ad vesperam super Saul et super Ionathan filium eius et super
    2 Samuel 11:
    -... comederet coram se et biberet et inebriavit eum qui egressus vespere dormivit in stratu suo cum servis domini sui et
    Acts 4:
    -... et posuerunt eos in custodiam in crastinum erat enim iam vespera multi autem eorum qui audierant verbum crediderunt
    Acts 28:
    -... Iesu ex lege Mosi et prophetis a mane usque ad vesperam et quidam credebant his quae dicebantur quidam
    Deuteronomy 23:
    -... egredietur extra castra et non revertetur priusquam ad vesperam lavetur aqua et post solis occasum regredietur in castra
    Deuteronomy 28:
    - mane dices quis mihi det vesperum et vespere quis mihi det mane propter cordis tui formidinem qua terreberis et propter ea quae tuis videbis oculis
    Ecclesiastes 11:
    - mane semina sementem tuam et vespere ne cesset manus tua quia nescis quid magis oriatur hoc an illud et si utrumque simul melius erit
    Esther 2:
    - ... feminarum ad regis cubiculum transiebant et quae intraverat vespere egrediebatur mane atque inde in secundas aedes deducebatur quae
    Exodus 12:
    -... diem mensis huius immolabitque eum universa multitudo filiorum Israhel ad vesperam et sument de sanguine ac ponent super
    - ... ritu perpetuo primo mense quartadecima die mensis ad vesperam comedetis azyma usque ad diem vicesimam primam eiusdem mensis ad vesperam septem diebus fermentum non invenietur in domibus
    Exodus 16:
    -... dixeruntque Moses et Aaron ad omnes filios Israhel vespere scietis quod Dominus eduxerit vos de terra Aegypti ... contra nos et ait Moses dabit Dominus vobis vespere carnes edere et mane panes in saturitate eo quod
    -... dicens audivi murmurationes filiorum Israhel loquere ad eos vespere comedetis carnes et mane saturabimini panibus scietisque quod sim Dominus Deus vester factum est ergo vespere et ascendens coturnix operuit castra mane quoque ros iacuit
    Exodus 18:
    - ... ut iudicaret populum qui adsistebat Mosi de mane usque ad vesperam quod cum vidisset cognatus eius omnia scilicet
    -... solus sedes et omnis populus praestolatur de mane usque ad vesperam cui respondit Moses venit ad me populus
    Exodus 29:
    - hoc est quod facies in altari agnos anniculos duos per singulos dies iugiter unum agnum mane et alterum vespere...
    -... in agno uno alterum vero agnum offeres ad vesperam iuxta ritum matutinae oblationis et iuxta ea quae diximus
    Exodus 30:
    -... lucernas incendet illud et quando conlocat eas ad vesperum uret thymiama sempiternum coram Domino in generationes vestras
    Ezekiel 12:
    -... vasa transmigrantis per diem in conspectu eorum tu autem egredieris vespere coram eis sicut egreditur migrans ante oculos
    -... mihi vasa mea protuli quasi vasa transmigrantis per diem et vespere perfodi mihi parietem manu in caligine egressus sum
    Ezekiel 33:
    -... manus autem Domini facta fuerat ad me vespere antequam veniret qui fugerat aperuitque os meum donec veniret
    Ezekiel 46:
    -... limen portae et egredietur porta autem non claudetur usque ad vesperam et adorabit populus terrae ad ostium portae
    Ezra 3:
    -... populis terrarum et obtulerunt super illud holocaustum Domino mane et vespere feceruntque sollemnitatem tabernaculorum sicut scriptum est et
    Genesis 8:
    -... ex arca at illa venit ad eum ad vesperam portans ramum olivae virentibus foliis in ore suo intellexit
    Genesis 19:
    - veneruntque duo angeli Sodomam vespere sedente Loth in foribus civitatis qui cum vidisset surrexit
    Genesis 24:
    -... cumque camelos fecisset accumbere extra oppidum iuxta puteum aquae vespere eo tempore quo solent mulieres egredi ad hauriendam aquam
    Genesis 29:
    -... multis amicorum turbis ad convivium fecit nuptias et vespere filiam suam Liam introduxit ad eum dans
    Genesis 30:
    -... hac nocte pro mandragoris filii tui redeuntique ad vesperam de agro Iacob egressa est in occursum Lia et
    Genesis 49:
    -... suos Beniamin lupus rapax mane comedet praedam et vespere dividet spolia omnes hii in tribubus Israhel
    Isaiah 5:
    -... qui consurgitis mane ad ebrietatem sectandam et potandum usque ad vesperam ut vino aestuetis cithara et lyra et
    Isaiah 17:
    -... et sicut turbo coram tempestate in tempore vespere et ecce turbatio in matutino et non subsistet haec
    Isaiah 21:
    -... convertimini venite onus in Arabia in saltu ad vesperam dormietis in semitis Dodanim occurrentes sitienti ferte
    Isaiah 38:
    -... mea dum adhuc ordirer succidit me de mane usque ad vesperam finies me sperabam usque ad mane quasi leo sic contrivit omnia ossa mea de mane usque ad vesperam finies me sicut pullus hirundinis sic clamabo
    Jeremiah 5:
    -... idcirco percussit eos leo de silva lupus ad vesperam vastavit eos pardus vigilans super civitates eorum omnis qui
    Job 4:
    -... consumentur velut a tinea de mane usque ad vesperum succidentur et quia nullus intellegit in aeternum peribunt
    Job 7:
    -... si dormiero dico quando consurgam et rursum expectabo vesperam et replebor doloribus usque ad tenebras induta
    Job 11:
    -... recordaberis et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer
    Job 38:
    -... dissipare numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis numquid nosti
    Joshua 5:
    -... Israhel in Galgalis et fecerunt phase quartadecima die mensis ad vesperum in campestribus Hiericho et comederunt de frugibus
    Joshua 7:
    -... et cecidit pronus in terram coram arca Domini usque ad vesperum tam ipse quam omnes senes Israhel miseruntque pulverem super
    Joshua 8:
    -... regem quoque eius suspendit in patibulo usque ad vesperum et solis occasum praecepitque et deposuerunt cadaver eius de
    Joshua 10:
    -... eos atque suspendit super quinque stipites fueruntque suspensi usque ad vesperum cumque occumberet sol praecepit sociis ut deponerent
    Judges 19:
    -... considera quod dies ad occasum declivior sit et propinquet ad vesperum mane apud me etiam hodie et duc laetum diem ... apparuit homo senex revertens de agro et de opere suo vespere qui et ipse erat de monte Ephraim et peregrinus
    Judges 20:
    -... et sedentes flebant coram Domino ieiunaveruntque illo die usque ad vesperam et obtulerunt ei holocausta et pacificas victimas
    Judges 21:
    -... Dei in Silo et in conspectu eius sedentes usque ad vesperam levaverunt vocem et magno ululatu coeperunt flere dicentes
    Judith 12:
    -... munda manebat in tabernaculum usque dum acciperet escam suam in vesperam et factum est quarto die Holofernis fecit
    Leviticus 6:
    - haec est oblatio Aaron et filiorum eius quam offerre debent Domino in die unctionis suae decimam partem oephi offerent similae in sacrificio sempiterno medium eius mane et medium vespere
    Leviticus 11:
    -... quicumque morticina eorum tetigerit polluetur et erit inmundus usque ad vesperum et si necesse fuerit ut portet quippiam
    - ... quadrupedia inmundum erit qui tetigerit morticina eorum polluetur usque ad vesperum et qui portaverit huiuscemodi cadavera lavabit vestimenta sua et inmundus erit usque ad vesperum quia omnia haec inmunda sunt vobis hoc
    - ... inmunda sunt qui tetigerit morticina eorum inmundus erit usque ad vesperum et super quod ceciderit quicquam de morticinis
    - ... quocumque fit opus tinguentur aqua et polluta erunt usque ad vesperum et sic postea mundabuntur vas autem fictile
    - ... vobis comedere qui cadaver eius tetigerit inmundus erit usque ad vesperum et qui comederit ex eo quippiam sive portaverit lavabit vestimenta sua et inmundus erit usque ad vesperum omne quod reptat super terram abominabile erit
    Leviticus 14:
    -... qui intraverit domum quando clausa est inmundus erit usque ad vesperum et qui dormierit in ea et comederit
    Leviticus 15:
    -... vestimenta sua et ipse lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum si sederit ubi ille sederat et ipse lavabit vestimenta sua et lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum qui tetigerit carnem eius lavabit vestimenta sua et ipse lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum si salivam huiuscemodi homo iecerit super eum
    - ... lavabit vestem suam et lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum sagma super quo sederit inmundum erit
    - ... eo fuerit qui fluxum seminis patitur pollutum erit usque ad vesperum qui portaverit horum aliquid lavabit vestem suam et ipse lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum omnis quem tetigerit qui talis est non
    - ... lavabit vestimenta sua et lotus aqua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum vas fictile quod tetigerit confringetur vas autem
    Leviticus 17:
    -... suas et semet ipsum aqua et contaminatus erit usque ad vesperum et hoc ordine mundus fiet quod si
    Leviticus 22:
    -... cuius tactus est sordidus inmundus erit usque ad vesperum et non vescetur his quae sanctificata sunt sed cum
    Leviticus 23:
    -... temporibus suis mense primo quartadecima die mensis ad vesperum phase Domini est et quintadecima die mensis
    - ... adfligetis animas vestras die nono mensis a vespero usque ad vesperum celebrabitis sabbata vestra et locutus est Dominus
    Leviticus 24:
    -... extra velum testimonii in tabernaculo foederis ponetque eas Aaron a vespere usque in mane coram Domino cultu rituque perpetuo
    Mark 1:
    - vespere autem facto cum occidisset sol adferebant ad eum omnes male habentes et daemonia habentes
    Mark 11:
    -... et introivit Hierosolyma in templum et circumspectis omnibus cum iam vespera esset hora exivit in Bethania cum duodecim - ... universa turba admirabatur super doctrina eius et cum vespera facta esset egrediebatur de civitate et cum
    Mark 14:
    - vespere autem facto venit cum duodecim
    Matthew 8:
    - vespere autem facto obtulerunt ei multos daemonia habentes
    Matthew 14:
    - vespere autem facto accesserunt ad eum discipuli eius dicentes desertus
    - vespere autem facto solus erat ibi
    Matthew 16:
    - facto vespere dicitis serenum erit rubicundum est enim caelum
    Matthew 26:
    - vespere autem facto discumbebat cum duodecim discipulis et
    Matthew 28:
    - vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria
    Numbers 9:
    -... in tempore suo quartadecima die mensis huius ad vesperam iuxta omnes caerimonias et iustificationes eius praecepitque
    -... qui fecerunt tempore suo quartadecima die mensis ad vesperam in monte Sinai iuxta omnia quae mandaverat Dominus Mosi
    -... phase Domino mense secundo quartadecima die mensis ad vesperam cum azymis et lactucis agrestibus comedent illud
    -... igitur die qua erectum est tabernaculum operuit illud nubes a vespere autem super tentorium erat quasi species ignis usque mane
    -... ad imperium illius deponebant si fuisset nubes a vespere usque mane et statim diluculo tabernaculum reliquisset proficiscebantur et
    Numbers 19:
    -... et corpore suo ingredietur in castra commaculatusque erit usque ad vesperam sed et ille qui conbuserit eam lavabit vestimenta sua et corpus et inmundus erit usque ad vesperam colliget autem vir mundus cineres vaccae et
    -... qui vaccae portaverat cineres vestimenta sua inmundus erit usque ad vesperum habebunt hoc filii Israhel et advenae qui habitant inter
    -... lavabit et se et vestimenta sua et mundus erit ad vesperam si quis hoc ritu non fuerit expiatus
    -... sua omnis qui tetigerit aquas expiationis inmundus erit usque ad vesperam quicquid tetigerit inmundus inmundum faciet et anima quae horum quippiam tetigerit inmunda erit usque ad vesperum
    Numbers 28:
    -... holocaustum sempiternum unum offeretis mane et alterum ad vesperam decimam partem oephi similae quae conspersa sit
    -... in sanctuario Domini alterumque agnum similiter offeretis ad vesperam iuxta omnem ritum sacrificii matutini et libamentorum eius oblationem
    Psalms 29:
    -... ira in indignatione eius et vita in voluntate eius ad vesperum demorabitur fletus et ad matutinum laetitia ego
    Psalms 54:
    -ad Deum clamavi et Dominus salvabit me vespere et mane et meridie narrabo et adnuntiabo et exaudiet
    Psalms 58:
    -... miserearis omnibus qui operantur iniquitatem diapsalma convertentur ad vesperam et famem patientur ut canes et circuibunt civitatem
    -... Deus dominatur Iacob finium terrae diapsalma convertentur ad vesperam et famem patientur ut canes et circuibunt civitatem
    Psalms 64:
    -... timebunt qui inhabitant terminos a signis tuis exitus matutini et vespere delectabis visitasti terram et inebriasti eam multiplicasti
    Psalms 89:
    -... mane sicut herba transeat mane floreat et transeat vespere decidat induret et arescat
    Psalms 103:
    -... homo ad opus suum et ad operationem suam usque ad vesperum quam magnificata sunt opera tua Domine omnia
    Ruth 2:
    -... nemo corripiat collegit ergo in agro usque ad vesperam et quae collegerat virga caedens et excutiens invenit hordei
    Sirach 18:
    -... paupertatis in die divitiarum a mane usque ad vesperam mutatur tempus et haec omnia citata in oculis Dei
    Zechariah 14:
    -... nota est Domino non dies neque nox et in tempore vesperae erit lux et erit in die illa
    Zephoniah 2:
    -... remanserit de domo Iuda ibi pascentur in domibus Ascalonis ad vesperam requiescent quia visitabit eos Dominus Deus eorum et avertet
    Zephoniah 3:
    -... in medio eius quasi leones rugientes iudices eius lupi vespere non relinquebant in mane prophetae eius vesani...


    To sum it up:
    1) Jerome's most frequent word for "evening" in other cases than ablative (often the temporal adverbial use) is vespera,ae both in his letters and in the Vulgate, and not just after ad.
    2) Anytime he needs the adverbial use (or simply the ablative) he uses vespere, and also vesperi (afaik)
    3) a few times as an alternative for ad vesperam he uses ad vesperum
    4) he uses the correlatives mane and vespere in one sentence quite often, quite unambigously with the ablative of time meaning
    5) In none instance, as long as I was able to read them, I found a nominative (or a non-ablative) form vespere

    My conclusion/opinion:
    As I find it highly improbable that Jerome, the main and core translator of the Vulgate, wouldn't author the first lines of Genesis, I think that his lexical use of the root "vesper-" doesn't differ in his letters and the Vulgate (which create the main corpus of his writings) or I see no reason why would it. It is a quite central (in terms of frequence in Latin) word, it didn't change a lot in his times form the classical times and there doesn't seem to be evidence of even bleeding of other/new words & forms into his language in his more than 100 letters, where he pretty much speaks his mind as it goes... as he vocalizes his thoughts.
    In about 150 hits that are mentioned there is not even a shread of evidence of a non-ablative vespere, but there is a strong evidence of ablative temporal vespere usually correlative with mane.

    Generally in science the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, but as long as my experience with Latin and corpus-based languages goes, the absence of evidence direct or indirect (=e.g. the morphology allowing for it casually in the given time, strongly supported by evidence) is an evidence of absence by statistics (and also should be normative for the active use of Latin).

    I strongly think that unless a miracle was happening or Jerome had a stroke (and I find it improbable that he didn't author the first lines of Genesis, almost ridiculous) that, given this data, it is very impossible for this vespere to be non-ablatival and quite improbable to be a different ablative than the temporal given the other copious instances of a correlative vespere and mane in none other than the temporal meaning. You may disagree, but given the research that can be done into this, the counter-argument (at least for the non-ablative) is necessarily going to be quite weak in comparison.

    To be edited for mistakes later :)
    Last edited by Godmy, Dec 26, 2017
    bathtime likes this.
  10. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    The thing is I don't see how "factum est vespere et mane, dies primus" makes sense if you take "vespere" and "mane" as ablatives of time. It seems an unlikely interpretation at best. Then again, taking "vespere" as a nominative seems weird as well, so I'm not really sure.
    Bestiola likes this.
  11. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia


    I never thought that was a big problem.

    Edit: Alternatively, Jerome was heading for the analogy with the verses that deal with the day 2 etc...
    Last edited by Godmy, Dec 25, 2017
  12. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    That seems like a stretch for me – if I read "factumque est vespere et mane", I would never come to the interpretation you gave there.
    Bestiola likes this.
  13. Laurentius Weebus Maximus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Antium
    Looks like there's something similar in Exodus 16:13.
    Pacifica and Bestiola like this.
  14. Bestiola Speculatrix

    • Praetor
    • Praeco
    That's a formula by which God closes creation each of the six days: "And there was evening, and there was morning." In it Jerome was following Hebrew original - the evening is mentioned first because the Jewish custom was to regard the start of the day at dusk, not at dawn.
    Last edited by Bestiola, Dec 28, 2017
    Godmy likes this.
  15. bathtime Member

    As an aside, I found a book called A Grammar of the Vulgate which one may find interesting. It talks of Hebrew and Greek influence and seems to be a trove of information. Alas, on searching for vesper and mane, I was not able to find any information directly pertaining to its usage, though it still might be addressed somewhere as a general rule.

    *EDIT*

    I found this:

    With verbs : deterius habebat M k . 5.26, melius habuerit
    ( = κομφτότερον έ'σχβ ) Joh. 4.52. Such adverbs as bene,
    iuxta, longe are often used predicatively with the copulative verb ‘ to be’ e.g . ut bene sit tibi Eph .6.3; or
    with factum est, as factum est uespere Gen .1.8, f. e.
    sero Mt. 20. 8.

    This seems to automatically assume vespere as an adverb.

    So, ut bene sit tibi, seems to mean, as/in order that it would be well for you.
    Putting that into consideration, is this possible:

    factum est vespere et mane, dies secundus
    the second day was made late and in the morning.
    Last edited by bathtime, Dec 26, 2017
  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Factum doesn't agree with dies, so it can't mean "the second day was made".

    On the other hand, I suppose it could be sort of like "it became [in the] evening and [in the] morning", which doesn't make much sense in English, but with "evening" and "morning" indicating the state to which things came, much like in bene est.
    bathtime likes this.
  17. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Btw. I wouldn't insist on the ablative of time necessarily (I mean, I think the type of ablative could be for a discussion) even though I find it most probable given Jerome's phraseology (+ some other stuff I wrote earlier), but I think I would insist on vespere as an ablative/adverb(ial)* here (given Jerome's language + the probability of him authoring the first verses, despite Vetus Latina or the Greek/Hebrew) even though I fully respect those later cases of neutral (possibly even indeclinable) vespere you guys found.

    *by adverb or adverbial I mean syntactically, not having been converted to a syntactic noun (e.g. the indeclinable one, as suggested)
    Last edited by Godmy, Dec 26, 2017
  18. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    The Hebrew isn't declined, because the original Semitic case endings were dead by the time the Bible was written. I can't see anything in the original that would account for the bizarre Latin. I can't see any reason why it wasn't rendered with thumping literalism, as often in the Vulgate, or at least that's my impression.
    bathtime likes this.
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Etaoin!!! :bliss:
    Does that mean the Hebrew words corresponding to vespere and mane in this sentence could theoretically be interpreted either as subjects or as adverbials of time, or would some prepositions be needed for the latter interpretation (or is that latter interpretation made impossible by some other factors)?
  20. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם אֶחָד

    Literally: 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' I can't say that the words for 'evening' and 'morning' would never be used without prepositions to be an adverbial of time, but it certainly would be rather anomalous. The verbs are in that bizarre imperfect-translated-as-though-it-were-perfect tense, but that never seems to cause anyone any problems, and doesn't here.

Share This Page

 

Our Latin forum is a community for discussion of all topics relating to Latin language, ancient and medieval world.

Latin Boards on this Forum:

English to Latin, Latin to English translation, general Latin language, Latin grammar, Latine loquere, ancient and medieval world links.