Hot-Stove Latin

By Iynx, in 'Latin Neologisms', Sep 22, 2006.

  1. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    To revisit an old problem: how about praepes, praepitis (f) for "line drive".
  2. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    An excellent suggestion, especially since a line drive is often a good omen (for the batter, at least).
  3. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Regarding series mundi, I agree with the approach.

    My assumption has always been that even technical balks--such as dropping the ball while on the mound--were originally prohibited because they were a deliberate attempt to deceive the baserunner. In other words, although in the modern game having the pitcher drop the ball is no longer an effective deception, I've always assumed that at one point it was (back in, say, the 19th century) or they wouldn't have lumped it under the balk rule.

    Though I'm still in favor of dolus, I see your point; could mora, -ae work for "balk"? Maybe not, if we also have an occasional mora imbri/imbribus...this is trickier than I thought.
  4. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Why are you unenthusiastic about foedus? Confusion with foedus, -a, -um, or something else. This, I believe, was the term used by Livy in referring to the "Latin League" of budding client-cities in Latium bound to Rome, so it's pretty close to the modern "league" IMO.

    I don't really have a problem with the Medieval liga, just curious...
  5. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    I'm not entirely sure. Maybe because it's too close to foedus, -a, -um, foedo, and foeditas?

    I reflect that in the US we still have the American Association, and that in scholastic ball we often have "conferences" (although in practice these are also very often also called "leagues"). For now, at least, I'll put in liga, foedus, and societas all three.
  6. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    I don't care much for mora as "balk", but mora imbri is perfect. The imbri is ablative, I suppose?
  7. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Correct, though a quick check shows imbre is also found.
  8. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Well, the season is over. It was precisely to relieve the sadness of this time that I began this thing; so let us soldier on.

    I would at this point like to review the situation vis-a-vis baserunning.

    I think we have pretty much agreed on the following three items:

    1. runner: cursor, cursoris
    2. to tag (out): tango, tangere, tetigi. tactus
    3. to tag up /to retouch: retango, retangere, retetigi, retactus

    4. It would follow, I think, that a tag should be tactus, -us, and a tag-up or retouch retactus, -us.

    5. I think that I proposed basim furari (furor, furari, furatus) for "to steal a base". I don't think that (de)peculor will do here; are there any other ideas?

    If we accept furor, corrolaries might be that

    6. stolen base: basis furata (Glare does say that furor is one of those deponents the perfect participle of which may be passive in meaning as well as active).

    7. to steal: furari or furtum (basis) facere.

    7. We have I think agreed that labi is far from ideal for "to slide". Among other things this would (it seems to me) lead to lapsus meaning "a slide", and I don't like that at all.

    I have tried hard to come up with an alternative, considering decumbo, decurro, se deicio, delabor, se demitto, se depono, se deprimo, se deruo, descendo, se subdo, subeo, subsido, subterlabor, and others. None are (to my taste) very satisfactory, but forced to choose among these, I best like delabor.

    8. A slide would then be delapsus, -us.

    9. Straight-in slide: delapsus rectus.

    10. Hook slide: delapsus hamatus.

    11. Fall-away slide: delapsus a basi.

    12. Pop-up slide: delapsus insurgens (I like this one; it makes me see something I never saw before, namely the oxymoronic character of the English term).

    13. Headfirst slide: delapsus praeceps.

    14. "Standing" (as opposed to sliding) might simply be stans, stantis. . (Stante venit tute ad basim secundam cum [ictu] duplici). Or perhaps, if duplex is thought of as a noun, cum duplice?

    15. A "lead" might be initium, -i.

    16. A run-down or pickle might be angustiae, -arum.

    As always, all ideas are welcome.
  9. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Let me further suggest a couple more scoring terms:

    earned run: cursus meritus.
    unearned run: cursus non meritus.
  10. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Seems reasonable; I guess a pitcher's ERA would be MCM (mensura cursuum meritorum
  11. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    1-5 all seem obvious given the discussion so far.

    6. Basis furata is also OK; my experience is that deponent perfect participles are not uncommon in both active and passive senses. I've always thought of these as a relic of some long-lost middle voice in Latin.

    7. Like you, I'm not a huge fan of labor, labi, lapsus - "slide". Coining delabor is perhaps our best option, conveying the "down toward the base" nature of a slide. Delapsus then is the obvious noun equivalent, and the various descriptions seem straightforward. Delapsus hamatus is perhaps my favorite, as I believe hamus was a fish-hook and this pretty much describes the bend of the leg in a hook-slide.

    14. I'm not sure I understand your example for stans. Do you mean to use this in a phrase like "stand-up double"? Also, I think we can take simplex, duplex, triplex as nouns, like you suggest.

    15-16. initium and angustiae are excellent choices. I'm really interested in using as many attested terms as possible, coining new ones only where necessary. Angustiae, for example, really captures what's going on in a rundown better than a coinage like adsecutio, -onis.

    Since we're talking about base-running, I have an idea for "pick-off": decarpo, -ere, which I guess would make decarptus, -us the noun equivalent. I've also been thinking about "double play", but am not so thilled with lusus exitiis duobus. Any better ideas?

    Is there a way to store the vocabulary list somewhere on the board for easy access? I think it would make things a little easier.
  12. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    A. To take your last point first Cato: I have right along been storing a working list in the second post in this thread, editing it from time to time; I thought you knew.

    It's set up in three sections. The first lists terms by category, color-coded: black for "accepted", green for "under discussion", and red for "needed".

    I have added only accepted terms to the second two sections, which are the English-Latin and the Latin-English glossaries.

    This list is never right up to date, of course.

    And just because a term is in black does not (of course) mean that it can't be changed (or supplemented with a synonym). I don't think I've "unaccepted" anything yet, but I'll be surprised if we get through the whole project without doing so.

    B. Delabor is not a coined word; Glare has almost a whole column on it. And even delapsus is classically attested, though only in the sense of "an outfall for drainage".

    C. Yes, I intended stans to mean "stand-up"; my exemplar sentence was supposed to mean "He's into second standing safely with a double".

    D. For double play, why not just lusus duplex?

    E. I like decarpo, but I'm not crazy about decarptus. There's a classical word carptura, -ae, used of honey, meaning "gathering; collection"-- I guess they thought of it as "picking" honey. How about decarptura for the noun? I'm not sure-- I'm very willing to use decarptus if you prefer it. "Pick-off play" might be some phrase like ludus de decarptura /decarptu or ludus decarpens, I suppose.

    F. On a related matter: I believe I suggested dolus pilae occultae for "hidden ball trick", but your phrase for "rain delay" makes me realize that an ablative would probably be better: dolus pila occulta.
  13. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Not until I tried to type them into the glossary did I realize how awkward de decarptura and de decarptu sound-- the double de is far from euphonious. And I'm not sure that the de is right here anyhow. Can we use "new" dative-of-purpose here (lusus decarpturae or lusus decarptui , or a "new" dative gerundive (decarpendo)? If not, how do we say this?
  14. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    I had assumed your posting of updates was from a privately-stored list; I see it now, and am glad its there.
  15. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Dative of purpose seems natural here. Regarding decarptura, I'm not sure; I'd say it's the best we've got for now.
  16. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    So it is. Conincidentally, the cites for both delapsus and carptura both come from the same source, Varro's De Re Rustica.
    Venit tute ad basim secundam stans cum duplice; seems OK.
    I was initially afraid that the citations for duplex would only support uses like "twice as much, two times X" (it's an uncommon word, so I didn't expect a wide range of uses).

    Checking my OLD, I see classical uses such as cohortis...duplici acie educit (Caesar De bello civili 3.67.3) where duplex doesn't really refer to the size of the acies but the fact that it is composed of two cohortes. This now leads me to accept lusus duplex - "double play". This may seem pedantic, but I went with first instict in suggesting lusus exitiis duobus
    I personally prefer the abl. of description over the gen. when the description is not "quantifiable" (in the loosest possible sense; vir magnae virtutis is OK to me, since "great" implies measured comparison to some standard of "courage"). I make an exception favoring the gen. for vague descriptive phrases like huius modi. Not really a hard-and-fast rule, but just a product of my experience.
  17. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Dolus pila occulta it is then. Given your very apt remarks on the ablative versus the genitive, we may wish to re-examine some other terms in which we (or at least I) have used a genitive modifying a substantive. In the particular case of custos, however (e. g. custos primae basis) I think the genitive is what we want, as the thing kept or guarded seems classically to have been put into that case (as custos apium or custos corporis).

    I am particularly troubled by "first-base line" and "third-base line". Linea is easy enough, but in what case should prima basis /tertia basis be? Genitive doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps these should be ablative too: (linea prima basi and linea tertia basi)?

    I think we're doing pretty well in the whole area of baserunning. One term we haven't decided on, though, is the Latin for "caught stealing". How about in furto deprehensus?
  18. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Still in the general area of baserunning: how should one say "hit-and- run"?

    Based on our accepted words for the two elements, I suppose that "to hit- and-run would be icere-et-currere.

    But how about "hit-and-run play"? Lusus icendo-et currendo?

    A discussion of phrases like "the hit-and-run was on" probably needs to await some groundwork in the whole area of signs. We might begin by agreeing on a word for the "signs" themselves; surely signa, -orum is the obvious choice?


    Way back on 6 October Cato wrote:

    "For 'out', since this is short for 'put out, sent out', I thought exitum would be a good choice for the noun, exitus, -a, -um for the adjective'.

    I have not, I think, thus far gotten back to this topic, and would like to do so now.

    I think that exitus, -a, -um is close to perfect for the adjective. To be explicit about the matter, we are here talking (are we not?) about the perfect passive participle of exeo. A consequence of this decision (it seems to me) is that exeo must serve (at least as one of several synonymous expressions) to mean "to be (put) out" or "to make an out".

    As far as the noun is concerned, however, it seems to me that exitus, -us ("the action of going out, departure, egress") might be better than exitum (even if it does mean yet another IVth-Declension noun). Exitium, -i, with its overtones of destruction, ruin, and death, is tempting, but I think over the top.
  19. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    I'm in agreement on exitus, -us and the verb exeo - "to put out"
  20. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Chicago, IL
    Signa, -orum is the right word. Regarding "hit-and-run play", would the genitive be better here? "hit-and-run" is almost in apposition with "play", and so I'd vote for an appositional genitive (e.g. poena mortis - "penalty of death" = "death penalty", ars scribendi - "the art of writing" = "writing art", where the two words are really talking about the same thing).

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