Lapis statim homo facitur.

By SpeedPocok5, in 'Latin Beginners', Feb 8, 2019.

  1. SpeedPocok5 Member

    Lapis statim homo facitur.

    how could this sentence be translated?

    i see that homo is nominative, so i'm confused.
  2. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    Where did you find this odd bit of curiosity?
    Pacifica and SpeedPocok5 like this.
  3. SpeedPocok5 Member

    i don't understand what do you mean
  4. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    Because passive forms of facio are rarely "invented"
  5. john abshire Member


    The man was immeadiately turned to (made into) stone.
    ??
  6. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    That could be correct, though without context I'd more instinctively take it the other way around.

    As Matthaeus implied, facitur is a very rare form. Present, imperfect and future simple passive forms of facio are usually supplied by fio. So, a more correct way to put it would have been lapis statim homo fit.
  7. Etaoin Shrdlu Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
  8. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
  9. SpeedPocok5 Member

    so, the sentence how can it be translated?
  10. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
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    in orbe lacteo
  11. john abshire Member

    lapis statim homo facitur
    "The man was immeadiately turned to (made into) stone."
    when you say "That could be correct, though without context I'd more instinctively take it the other way around."
    do you mean;
    "The stone was immeadiately turned to (made into) man"??
    if so, i am puzzled, as homo is nominative.
    shouldn't homo be hominem ?
    or, is homo is a predicate complement?


    lapis statim homo fit. [Present, imperfect and future simple passive forms of facio are usually supplied by fio]
    "The stone was immeadiately turned to (made into) man"
    lapis statim hominem fit??

  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes. Fio, like sum, takes a predicative complement, not a direct object. As for the rare form facitur, it means same, and a passive verb (unless it's deponent and has active meaning) can't take a direct object anyway.
    I'm puzzled by your reasoning. ;) Even if fio had taken the accusative, lapis is nominative too, so...
  13. john abshire Member

    you answered my question, i.e.
    homo (or lapis) being predicate complement clears up why homo (and lapis) are in nominative.

    I meant for my question to read this way;
    "if so, i am puzzled, as homo is nominative.
    or, is homo a predicate complement?"
    Last edited by john abshire, Feb 10, 2019 at 2:57 PM
  14. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    That is how it read...
  15. john abshire Member

    lapis statim homo facitur
    my intent was to make sure I understood that 'since facio takes predicate complement (like sum) the preceding sentence can be interpreted either of two ways'
    "The man was immeadiately turned to (made into) stone."
    "The stone was immeadiately turned to (made into) man"

    and similarly;
    agricola est nauta.
    "the farmer is a sailor"
    "the sailor is a farmer."

    nonne accuratus sum?
  16. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Just to make things clear: facio in the active takes a direct object in the accusative, e.g. panem facio, "I make bread". But, when it's in the passive, the subject of the passive verb, which would have been the object of the active verb, is of course in the nominative, e.g. panis facitur, "Bread is made". There can also be a predicative complement in agreement with the subject, e.g. panis lapis facitur, "The bread becomes (or is made/turned into) stone".

    Now, as I have said earlier, facitur is a very rare form and fit (from fio) would normally be used instead. Fio, "become", takes a predicative complement and never a direct object. This is because what comes after "become" doesn't denote an object on which the subject is acting; rather, it describes the subject and therefore agrees with it.
    Yes, that's correct. Only by knowing the context can you tell for sure which one it is. Word order can be a clue; it can make one interpretation more likely than the other in the absence of context; but context can change everything.
    I take it you mean "Am I not accurate/correct/right?" but that isn't correct Latin. Nonne recte dixi/teneo? or something like that would be better.
  17. john abshire Member

    thank you
  18. john abshire Member

    do the verbs appello and nomino (plus any other verbs of calling, naming, making into, becoming, etc) follow this same pattern?
    e.g.
    appello (passive)
    the king is called marcus.
    rex marcus appellatur. (marcus is predicate complement, therefore both rex and marcus in nominative?)

    appello (active)
    He calls the king marcus.
    regem marco appellat. (regem (acc) following panem facio "i make bread", but it seems to me that marcus is the indirect object, so I put marcus in dative (marco).
    I don't think it is right, but it seems similar to "I gave the book to the girl", where book is DO (acc) and girl is the indirect object (and dative).
    ??
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes.
    No, Marcus isn't an indirect object.

    Just as in the passive construction, Marcus is a predicative complement. The difference is that, in the active construction, this predicative complement refers to a direct object (regem) rather than a subject (rex); therefore the complement must agree with the direct object in the accusative.
  20. john abshire Member

    He calls the king stupid.
    regem stultum appellat.
    is the adjective stultus also a 'predicate complement' (in agreement with the direct object, regem)?

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