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Latin text in alchemical imagery translation help...

By danielronnstam, in 'Latin to English Translation', Apr 3, 2013.

  1. Hello. I need to have the latin text on the boxes and also on the upper left and right corners translated to English. Can anyone help me with this ? Image is in attachment.

    Thank you

    Padora sextae aetatis_imagery_02.jpg

    I would also like to get all text in this image from the same book translated... thank you...

    Padora sextae aetatis_imagery_01.jpg
  2. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    I'm puzzling a bit over one of the abbreviations: MEDIAT T, with a line over the A.
    In more legible Latin, the two boxes together read:
    Ignorantiam meam summa cum invidia mortalium iunctam, ex animo serioque nec sero deplorans, unicum mihi solatium existimo quod id eiusque media?t?t? ministris, tacendo, sperando (rumpantur ut ilia momo) tandem fit surculus arbor fiat.

    Which means: "as for my ignorance, which is connected with the utmost resentment of mortals, I deplore it wholeheartedly and seriously, and not only lately, but I consider it my only solace, because/that ... [the bit I don't understand], by being silent, by continuing to hope (that blame may bust its guts!) and last it happens that the sapling becomes a tree."

    'rumpantur ut ilia X' seems to pop up in a few other places, where it means effectively 'X can go to hell'. It probably derives from some quotation, but I don't know what.

    The picture itself shows one guy standing on a block that says "I swear silence", and another on a block that says "I have hope for the future".
    Last edited by socratidion, Apr 4, 2013
  3. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    The second image:
    The sea has the legend 'pelagus opinionum' = sea of opinions.
    On the island is, well, what looks like a chunk of meat, labelled 'ignorantia' = ignorance.
    The cross above it says 'TANDEM!' = 'at last!'. Below it I can only read 'ju..te', the middle letters obscured by the cross. Perhaps 'juvate' = 'help!', or 'jurate' = 'swear', addressed to more than one person (i.e. it couldn't be addressed to god or anything).
    The telescopey thing on the side of the island is labelled 'errores' = errors
    The floating heart looks like it has some Hebrew written on it.
    Below the picture it says "Seek first the kingdom of GOD, and his justice, and all the rest will be added to you. Matthew chapter 6". You might want to look that up somewhere to get the 'official' version.
    Then below that: O how profound is the wisdom of GOD and hidden from the children of the world; what is not seen by outer eyes must be sought internally.
  4. THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!!!

    But does the "sperode futuro" not mean.. spared for the future ?

    Some more questions about the text in the upper picture. I'm not native English, so is the following translation correctly understood...

    As for my ignorance, which is connected with the utmost resentment (bitterness) of mortals, I deplore (weep for) it wholeheartedly and seriously, and not only lately, but I consider it my only solace (comfort), because/that ... [the bit I don’t understand], by being silent, by continuing to hope (that blame may bust its guts!) and last it happens that the sapling (young tree) becomes a tree.

    When I put the Latin through Google translate, it seem to want to translate the first row as ...

    "My ignorance was most unpopular men joined heartily deploring serioque nor late" ??? Could it be so that the first row can be understood as some men that joined efforts of some kind ? And that ignorance was most unpopular among them ?

    Thanks for your help..

    Also.. (that blame may bust its guts!). Could it be possible to understand the word that it translated to "blame", as some other word ? It seem not to fit in the meaning of the section.
  5. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    'invidia' is ill-will, sometimes arising from jealousy. I couldn't figure out what he was exactly getting at here: maybe that ignorance is regarded as a generally bad thing, to be ashamed of, thus incurring the ill-will of mortals.
    'deplorans': I assumed just 'feel bad about it'. It might be, as you suggest, that the metaphor is still alive, so 'weep for'; honestly I can't tell.
    'sapling' -- if anything, something even smaller, like a 'shoot'.
    Re 'momo', it's actually a Greek word. The big Greek dictionary gives the following possibilities: blame, reproach, disgrace, blemish. It didn't seem so odd to me, after 'invidia' in the first line.

    Re Google translate: I'm afraid Google has made a complete mess of it -- it always does: it's an appallingly inept service, in Latin anyway. If you want a good laugh, have a look at this thread: http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/google-translate-will-ensure-you-fail-latin.9710/

    It seems to me there's a possibility that 'ID' is an abbreviation, for e.g. 'iuvante deo'. Then maybe MEDIATT is something like 'mediantibus', and that whole bit would come out as
    "my one solace is that with god's help and his ministers mediating, by being silent etc..." -- ministers maybe meaning angels or saints or who knows what...
    Last edited by socratidion, Apr 4, 2013
  6. Thank you very much... But is there any possibility that the first row could be translated in a way that...

    The author refer to a joining of a group of people, that thought the world or the "mortals" were ignorant ?

    If this is possible, then the text would coincide with other research of mine.

    Also.. what do you think about the "spared for the future" translation ? Is it accurate or not ?

    You said:

    'rumpantur ut ilia X' seems to pop up in a few other places, where it means effectively 'X can go to hell'. It probably derives from some quotation, but I don't know what.

    What other places do you refer to ? Could you give some examples ? Thank you.

    Also.. would not the section in brackets (rumpantur ut ilia momo), be... "Disgrace can go to hell" ?
  7. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    I really don't think so. The thing that has been joined in this sentence is 'ignorantia', and it has been joined with 'invidia'.

    It is completely wrong. 'Spero de futuro' is definitely as I said: 'I hope for the future', or 'I hope about the future'. [/quote]

    I just did a google search for the phrase -- as you can too. I half expected it to be classical in origin (it sounds like the end of a hexameter verse), but couldn't find any classical versions.

    I don't see why not, though 'go to hell' might not be ideal for a book about alchemy -- people might think you meant it literally. ('bust its guts' is possibly a bit too colloquial, but I leave the choice to you)
  8. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    I'm not sure that trying to make the evidence fit your aims is a sound basis for research of any kind.

    It occurs here for a start:
    http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/vergil/ec7.shtml
  9. Paul Ferguson New Member

    OK guys, here is my contribution.

    I am told this is an engraving by Bonaventure Reiling from Theophilus Schweighardt's Roscrucian text 'Pandora sextae Aetatis...' (Salzburg, 1617).

    The German bit at the top says 'this engraving belongs to page 20'.

    Now for the Latin. The line over a vowel in medieval and Renaissance Latin means a following letter 'm' or 'n' has been omitted. So reading left to right I get:


    IGNORANTIAM MEAM SUMMA CUM INVIDIA MORTALIUM
    IUNCTAM EX ANIMO SERIOQUE NEC SERO DEPLORANS UNICUM
    MIHI SOLATIUM EXISTIMO QUOD IUVANTE DEO EIUSQUE MEDIANS TOTIS[?] MI-
    NISTRIS TACENDO SPERANDO (RUMPANTUR UT ILIA
    MOMO) TANDEM SURCULUS ARBOR FIAT

    So something like:

    'Sincerely and seriously and in no way belatedly bewailing my ignorance, which is combined with the greatest envy of mortals, I think that my only solace is that, with God's help and with the mediation of all His ministers, and by remaining silent and by hoping (may Momus's guts burst!), the sapling may at last become a tree.'


    RUMPANTUR UT ILIA MOMO is modelled on Virgil's 'Eclogues' 7.26 and means 'may Momus's guts burst [with envy]' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momus

    TANDEM SURCULUS ARBOR FIAT is a variation of the Latin motto of this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice,_Prince_of_Orange


    SILENTIUM IURO = I swear silence (i.e. I am sworn to silence, I have sworn to remain silent)

    SPERO DE FUTURO = (Three words!) I hope in the future (I place my hope in the future)

    Quaerite primo etc. is from Matthew 6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    O quam profunda etc. is, I think, a quotation from Sendivogius and means something like 'O how profound is the wisdom of God and how hidden from the sons of the world, something which must be sought inwardly which is not visible to the external eyes (vision).'

    Just my 2 eurocents. Thank you for an interesting post.

    Best,

    Paul
  10. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    Where does fit fit in? There is one after tandem.
    Also, how are you understanding medians?
  11. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    Very grateful for tracking down the Vergil. If you do a search on google for 'rumpantur ut ilia', you'll find a whole industry of people substituting for the last word (Momo, whatever) whatever is the current object of hatred. I doubt a specific allusion is intended -- no more than when people refer to the 'Winter of discontent' do they mean a specific allusion to the situation in, oh hell, whatever Shakespeare play it was.

    'medians totis' doesn't look any more probable an expansion of MEDIAST T ; and has the disadvantage of not making sense grammatically.

    It's no big deal, but you missed out the word 'FIT' from your transcription. (It actually changes the sense not a whit)

    Ah, hi Aurifex. BTW, I take the 'fit' as short for 'fit ut' (on the analogy of licet, say).
  12. Paul Ferguson New Member

    Sorry, my printer clapped out and I was working from memory. My solution to the missing 'fit' would be:

    'May the sapling become a tree' has finally become a reality.'

    Medians - see here http://ducange.enc.sorbonne.fr/medians
  13. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    That's possible. I also had a vague idea that it might work if we could persuade ourselves to read tandem fit surculus arbor as if it were in quotation marks, making the whole expression effectively a noun and the subject of fiat. That might be stretching things a bit, though.

    Don't you mean That "the sapling finally becomes a tree" becomes (or may become) a reality?

    Sorry, but I still don't see how it works. Are you treating it as a preposition or something?
  14. Paul Ferguson New Member


    Yes I think you are right. The phrase is a motto and even gets into Eudict ( http://www.eudict.com/?lang=lateng&word=tandem fit surculus arbor ) so I think can be treated as the subject of the sentence.
  15. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    The only reason you would have to write 'fit <ut> fiat' would be because you had some sort of well known idea like 'surculus arbor fit' in mind, whose grammatical form you wish to preserve. So it's half way between being in quotation marks and not. But hey, who knows.
  16. Paul Ferguson New Member

    1) yes, my solution was a bit over-interpreted. It's a motto and a stock-phrase.

    2) yes, 'by means of', 'through the mediation of', 'with the assistance of', + ablative.
  17. Thanks very much for the help. This tread is starting to take off nicely among you scholars. very interesting. I have had help from you guys before on Daniel Möglings (Theophilus Schweighardt) second book the mirror of the wisdom of the Rosicrucians. There are quotations from Virgil there. So I think Virgil is the guy to go with. Mögling also translated Phillip Sydney's Arcadia with Shickhard, so any quotations from English litterature would be interesting to find to.

    It is a none profit project of mine, but if you would like credits in my paper, please give me your names.

    Would it be possible to sum up the best conclusions about translations ? It would be nice to have the full text in the boxes on top, in the different version you conclude it could be.

    Thanks ones again.
  18. socratidion Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    London
    pace Paul Ferguson, 'medians' is not indeclinable, and for it to have the meaning he wants, it would have to be 'mediantibus', as I originally conjectured. However, I think his conjecture 'totis' might be right for the extra T.


    IGNORANTIAM MEAM SUMMA CUM INVIDIA MORTALIUM IUNCTAM, EX ANIMO SERIOQUE NEC SEO DEPLORANS, UNICUM MIHI SOLATIUM EXISTIMO QUOD I.D. <iuvante deo> EIUSQUE MEDIANTIBUS TOTIS MINISTRIS, TACENDO, SPERANDO (RUMPANTUR UT ILIA MOMO) TANDEM FIT SURCULUS ARBOR FIAT

    Otherwise, we're all pretty much on the same page about what it means. However we rationalise 'fit' and 'fiat' (interesting though it may be technically), it doesn't change much...
    Just in case of misunderstanding 'neque sero' has to be taken together, meaning 'and not belatedly', i.e. from an early stage.

    Otherwise, you can choose from the versions offered.
  19. Paul Ferguson New Member

    Sorry, should be 'mediant' anyway, not 'medians'. I wonder if it is an abbreviation for 'mediantibus'? Mediantibus totis ministris...

    Hi Daniel,


    Here's my latest effort based on the various comments:

    IGNORANTIAM MEAM SUMMA CUM INVIDIA MORTALIUM
    IUNCTAM EX ANIMO SERIOQUE NEC SERO DEPLORANS UNICUM
    MIHI SOLATIUM EXISTIMO QUOD IUVANTE DEO EIUSQUE MEDIANTIBUS TOTIS MI-
    NISTRIS TACENDO SPERANDO (RUMPANTUR UT ILIA
    MOMO) TANDEM FIT SURCULUS ARBOR FIAT


    'Bewailing my ignorance sincerely and seriously and not belatedly - an ignorance that is combined with the greatest envy of mortals - I feel that my only solace is that, with God's help and with all His ministers assisting, and by remaining silent and by hoping (may Momus's guts burst!) the well-known expression 'a shoot eventually becomes a tree' may come to pass.'

    By the way, what is the precise subject of your paper and where are you publishing it?

    The only English literary connection I know of with Schweighardt is Ben Jonson, who was familiar with his engravings. I think this is mentioned in the books by Frances Yates and Hereward Tilton.

    I had a quick look through the Pandora text and I didn't see any profound Latin scholarship there. The Virgil (mis)quotation would have been a stock phrase of the time, so I doubt if he was very much influenced by classical Latin authors.
  20. I'm a historic cryptographic researcher. I'm researching the Oak Island enigma after having found code work in renaissance publications. Please check... oakislandproject.com

    ok.. so can I use this translation: "'Bewailing my ignorance sincerely and seriously and not belatedly - an ignorance that is combined with the greatest envy of mortals - I feel that my only solace is that, with God's help and with all His ministers assisting, and by remaining silent and by hoping (may Momus's guts burst!) the well-known expression 'a shoot eventually becomes a tree' may come to pass.'

    and give Paul Ferguson the credit ? Someone else that wants to be credited ? Also.. the "the well-known expression", is that in the text, or did you add it ?

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