Letter "h" in Ecclesiastical Latin

By Consilius, in 'Pronunciation, Spelling and Listen to Latin', Apr 1, 2019.

  1. And the plot thickens.

    Anyways, I really want to see want Iáson means.
  2. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    Well, not according to his Wikipedia page (!). He was born in Illyria and apparently mentions speaking Illyrian somewhere, although to be fair I can't find the reference in the passage alluded to by Wikipedia and elsewhere on the internet (Commentary on Isaiah 7.19). Sadly PHI doesn't go that far.
  3. Wikipedia actually is trustworthy in My sight. Sometimes.
    But if we can't find his attested Illyrianess, what then?
  4. Terry S. flamen

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Hibernia
    This might be of some use to the discussion.

    Attached Files:

  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Not if you don't include whatever link you meant to include.
  6. Terry S. flamen

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Hibernia
    I had to delete it; it was the wrong file I uploaded.
  7. I think what Terry gave us is great information on pronounciation. Also just noticed that capitalized "My".
  8. Gregorius Textor Active Member

    Location:
    Ohio, midwestern U.S.A.
    For some time I've suspected that Jerome's pronunciation was more classical than what we understand today as Church Latin.

    One reason for this is that proper names in the Vulgate like Cis and Cedar are translated in English Bibles as Kish and Kedar, and I suppose that both Jerome and the English translators wanted to get the right consonant sound from the Hebrew name. He could have used CH, if not K, right?

    Another thought is that his contemporary Augustine of Hippo shows awareness of the distinction between long and short vowels -- a distinction which is lost in modern Church Latin. He wants teachers to make it clear that in os meum, for example, it is os (bone), the singular of ossa, not ōs (mouth), the singular of ōra (On Christian Doctrine, Book III, ch. 3). And he comments "And for this reason the vulgar idiom is frequently more useful in conveying the sense than the pure speech of the educated. For I would rather have the barbarism, non est absconditum a te ossum meum, than have the passage in better Latin, but the sense less clear."
  9. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    Quite. But the notion of 'Church Latin' means simply 'the pronunciation that is associated with certain churches in the modern period' rather than 'the pronunciation of the Church Fathers'. I don't think the coming of Christianity is associated with any particular phonological change.

    In this case, however, this passage suggests that the distinction was not made, simply because the implication is that os and ōs could not be told apart easily (and hence the need for the 'vulgar' form ossum to make the distinction). But other evidence does suggest strongly that in many environments the contrast between long and short vowels was maintained, although probably as a distinction of vowel quality rather than quantity.
    Gregorius Textor likes this.
  10. Gregorius Textor Active Member

    Location:
    Ohio, midwestern U.S.A.
    I agree with you there.

    Maybe it indicates the distinction was not made, but I think it depends on whether he was referring to the written or spoken word. In any case it shows that Augustine himself was aware of the distinction between long and short, even if some people did not observe it. I think that's about all I meant to say -- that, and that since Augustine made the distinction, Jerome might have too.

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