Lingua latina per se illustrata - answers?

By efilzeo, in 'General Latin Chat (English)', Sep 5, 2012.

  1. efilzeo New Member

    Location:
    Reggio
    Alright I'm repeating lessons more times (much more work than the version for English) but at the lesson 28 it already uses supines, deponents, future, conjunctives (esortative and not) etc. but it explained to me just the active and passive present and the active perfect, how could I understand supines, conjunctives, deponents etc. if it doesn't explain them? I didn't even know what a supine was. It alse uses the "infinitive", the "gerundive" and it's the same with declensions and vocabulary. It says to you "that's the second declension" and that's all, it does not repeat it more and more time to make you memorize it. Ok that Latin is not properly an easy language, but I feel I'm learning too slowly. Do you still think it's my fault? Am I really doing it badly or it's normal this feeling of not-learning during this part?
  2. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Edit: Why is this in "Latin Resources???"

    --------------------

    I don't know. I was using LLPSI myself, and I didn't feel this problem.
    But I wasn't a "normal student" probably: I was litterally "drinking Latin" at that time. Once the book introduced some concept, I made sure to exercise it on my own, making tons of sentences(and sometimes even "back" translations of latin into latin through some vernacular) + Exerctia Latina. And I wasn't particulary bothered, because the book just "told me about it" and I "accepted it" without being worried if it's going to repeat or not.

    One thing which really helped me to see if I got some concept firmly or not is a back-translation (= I know that translations are not how we learn languages, but it really helped me to see which things from the Latin morphology are not stored in my "mental Latin" well enough and where I need to get better).
    That means: 1) Pick a chapter you like and translate it into your vernacular. Be sure to make (if you want) many notes in the brackets to remind you later to use certain constructions and word order 2) translate it back to latin without looking at the original 3) compare it with the original and see which kind of mistakes you make and what needs to be exercised. 4) you can repeat the step 2) and 3) or only the step 2) without the step three and step one (=without making another translation into your vernacular) You will just use the one version to make several independent Latin versions of your own ;)

    Again: I know that this is not really the way to become fluent in expressing yourself in Latin, but it is a great way how to see if you understand the structure of the langauge well or not and if you can handle it. I loved back-translations... I'm not sure I would do them now, but back then....

    - Another way is to memorize the chapter so you can retell it yourself in Latin (by speaking aloud or in your mind). It's easy: 1) Read one small paragraph and try to visualize everything it happens there 2) Turn your eyes away from the book and try to retell in Latin what you have just "seen" happening (and you will see that you will unwillingly use almost the same constructions/same latin/same choice of words and grammar as in the book. This is even better than back-translations (which are rather to exercise your Latin morphological ability using a "brute-force"). It is also how you can become fluent in the language to a certain degree...
    You will see that you will be able to retell whole paragraphs and maybe even a whole story.
    3) Don't be worried that you don't remember it 100% 1:1 as it is in the text... even small efforts and an "imperfect renarration" will make miracles, trust me! ;)

    -----
    I have never really taken another course of Latin than this (maybe just read tons of random excerpts from various grammars, but you can learn a lot just by chatting and letting the others correct you) and I can say that LLPSI rocks! :banana: (at least for me :D)
    Last edited by Godmy, Oct 27, 2012
    LCF likes this.
  3. Schatzl Active Member

    Location:
    USA
    Salve, amice. I am on chapter six of the same book and have started to slow down and go back to do the exercises and Penums
    (pensa??). I also got to a point where I felt like I wasn't absorbing the information that I needed to. During this period of time, I started to do what you said, and went back again and read the book up to where I left off. Do you have the student manual? Because it's really helped me when it comes to understanding the mechanics of the language. Good luck, amice!
  4. Adrian Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Amice, perhaps it would be a good idea to acquire a decent grammar book (for example if you encounter a grammar aspect that you find difficult or in your perception was not explained sufficiently in LLPSI, you can look it up in grammar book). If you visit archive.org you will find plenty of free latin grammar e-books.
    1) Allen and Greenough's, New Latin Grammar for Schools and Colleges
    2) Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar
    3) Henry John Roby (a whole serie of grammar and prose composition books strarting from "An Elementary Latin Grammar" finishing on advanced latin grammar "A grammar of the Latin language from Plautus to Suetonius Vol. I and Vol. II".
    Schatzl likes this.
  5. Schatzl Active Member

    Location:
    USA
    I'm going to stop at the threat of being nominated for the Bitmap award, but I agree with Godmy. It is one of the better courses. Although before I got the books, I was watching some videos and if I wanted to work on something, I would just google it. That schedule didn't really work that well. To learn a language, you have to form study habits, like setting aside time each day, I always do Latin from 905 to 1020 in the morning during my study hall. Good luck.
  6. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    I don't know... I don't really recommend to read in these grammars to beginners with LLPSI, it's kind of contradicting the way you are supposed to learn and it can be also deterring for a beginner. I wasn't using any grammar, when I was using LLPSI (it's true that I was able to consult a teacher to get a quick and practical advice, but you can use us for that purpose)

    I recommend to Schatzl and to efilzeo one of the methods I've just described in this post http://latindiscussion.com/forum/la...e-illustrata-answers.15305/page-3#post-101549
  7. Adrian Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    There is also a site http://www.gutenberg.org/
    There you will find plenty of free e-books about latin grammar and prose composition e.g.
    1) Charles E. Bennett, New Latin Grammar
    2) Charles E. Bennet, New latin prose composition
    [However the best book for latin prose composition is Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition 2006 edition (it is a difficult book but it is detailed and containes lots of exercises)]. They key to the exercises is available to purchase from Cambridge University Press
    http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowled...'s Latin Prose Composition/?site_locale=en_GB
  8. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    (Certainly laudable set of resources ;+) But you know my opinion... I've described a natural method to learn Latin in the post #42)
  9. Adrian Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Godmy, I am also a fan of Orberg, however in some cases LLPSI in not enough - some people find natural cognition method easy - like you, some need additional help. LLPSI is a great book but it is not 100% efficient for everyone e.g. Some find inductive method more efficient, some gain better results from Whellock or Cambridge Latin Course (you had the chance to consult a professional teacher; please bear in mind that not all had such a convenience). When I was reading Familia Romana, I found some aspects difficult, so I searched the internet for them or asked my colleagues from classical philology faculty. The grammar books I mentioned are strictly for subsidiary/auxiliary purpose.
  10. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Adrian: That's why I gave them the tips in the post #42. Because not everybody knows how to use the book properly. To have it and to read it may not be enough because they have no idea what they should do themselves to "absorb" the language. That's why I've written those few tips. I think that to start reading these grammars at their stage is a way to hell...
    + I think I'm here the only one (I don't know about you?) who can really say something on LLPSI, because I don't know anybody else here who would use it as his primary and sole course for Latin :p

    They can asks us anytime simple concepts and get simple answers. That's all they need right now before they get to some level when they are ready to accept Latin in its "uglier" form (as described in the grammars :p)
    So if they have to, let them rather use the "Latin Grammar" section of the forum instead (I say).

    So my selfish recommendation for them stays: read the tips I gave you... if it doesn't help, you can everytime try to consult some of the Adrian books, but I believe it's easier to asks us here directly to get an answer in a "human way" ;)
    Last edited by Godmy, Oct 24, 2012
  11. Adrian Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    OK Amice, I get your point. However please bear in mind that LLPSI is a complete serie (Familia Romana + Roma Aeterna; student's manual, teacher's manual, exercita, sermones, Colloquia Personarum etc.). I followed the hints in teachers manual (each lesson is divided into sections, one section at a time, after the whole lesson is studied through, a repetition of the whole lesson + Colloquia Personarum, then exercises in book and exercisebook, afterward read the whole lesson, Colloquia Personarum chapter and exercises once more, then a break (1-2 days) so that the mind can rest and assimilate the knowledge; afterwards proceed to another lesson.

    EDIT: I do recall a short grammar book written by Orberg (about 40 pages), it was o the CD I bought - LLPSI complete set 2003 edition.
  12. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    Salve,

    From one student to another, I want to share some of my own experiences. We all learn differently and at different paces. Some prefer grammer drills and tables, some prefer the natural method. The key is to discover what works for you. I started with grammer books, drills etc... and quickly discovered that it was unnatural for me. Not because I did not understand,
    but because I did not have the chance to practice. And I could not determine the pace for myself. Then I came across LLPSE and it is doing miracles for me.
    While I finished the entire Familia Romana, Colloquia etc... I am truly and honestly only on chapter XII as routine study goes. I have been at this for maybe 5 months now but

    sine verecundia dicere possum; multum didici!!! quia, ut Godmy dixit se linguam "spirare" non discere... "I can say without shame that I feel I learned a lot because as like Godmy said he was breathing the language, I am also trying to breath it instead of learning it" Just last month I first learned how and when to use a subjunctive.
    Godmy with one simple correction "quomodo/ut etc... + possimus" introduced the concept to me. The point I am trying to make is this: Use the language, live the language, breath the language. And f*** the grammer!!! f****/ignore the grammer until your body craves it, not before!!! There are outlets for it believe me.
    Go to schola chat room. Chat with others, use the language. Sometimes on weekends we get together and we chat with voice. Great people, novices, med. skilled and totally fluent sodales all use the language all chat all share conversations all learn etc... ***Without pedantry***. If I make mistakes in the ut clause or tense or declension, who gives a damn? As my skill grows my language gets better. But only if I practice it.

    This is why LLPSI is good. It gives you stories to read and "not one or two sentences" like most grammer books do. Each story focuses only on 1-2 grammer points.

    Why am I only on chapter XII?
    * Because I read it many many times.
    * I read a sentences and write it in a notepad.
    * I listen to Orberg's audio and transcribe it.

    Other things:

    * There is an amazing (short :() collection of snippet classes by Miraglia and team from Academia Vivarium novum on you tube.
    You can use my playlist
    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF9DA51C22BE1CF6A
    * There is other invaluable readings on youtube. Some deal with grammer notes, I usually skip those, remember f*** the grammer :).
    * There is the most amazing work by a dude from England Evan Milner... he does a lot of work to teach latin, maybe his method will help you as well. I personally find it hard to learn from him and only listen to his readings of fabulas. (Again you have to accept that some ppl use differnent pronuncia and accents but that's totally cool)

    Sorry for being all over the place with my thoughts here,
    the main point is use the language, speak it (go to schola chat room), write it.

    It's a shame people on this forum are not writing blogs in latin, I URGE everyone to do so!!! PLEASE.... I don't care if you have the skill of Cicero or a volgar pleb, WRITE stuff!!!
    So much is learned from actually using the language.... And this is when you will start actually craving grammer topics slowly :)
    Who cares if you don't use the subjunctive in the ut clause? You know what I mean? Just write it...

    Thanks!

    see you in http://schola.ning.com/ and on blogs..

    Vale
    Godmy likes this.
  13. efilzeo New Member

    Location:
    Reggio
    Ha ha, no, you've misunderstood me. With that message I was talking about Assimil, not Lingua latina per se illustrata. Because of those motives I'm thinking to abandon Assimil and come back to LLPSI.
    LCF likes this.
  14. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas
    efilzeo, you don’t have to understand all the grammar thoroughly at
    once. ​ Remember the second wave, too. ​ If you have questions
    concerning particular texts or phrases, post them and feel free to PM
    me if I happen to overlook your post.
  15. efilzeo New Member

    Location:
    Reggio
    Thanks Quasus, but for now I'll try with LLPSI for a bit, at least until I acquire the declensions.

    By the way I've just found this application for Windows which correct exercises of LLPSI. Doing that I've understood that the singular imperative is made just cutting the -t of the third person: audit -> audi, vocat -> voca, and to make the plural I just need to add the -te at the end (or at least I hope so).

    [IMG]
  16. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos

    Some tricks that works for me, may be it would be of use to you (and others) as well:

    When learning what things are called (nouns), the tradition is to list/learn nominative and genitive. I am not sure of the origins of this tradition, maybe Donatus and even earlier grammarians started it, who knows. But I find it totally and completely unnatural!!!

    Remembering singular and plural nominatives is what feel more natural to me. (Yes, nov. and gen. convention might be %100 accurate, but nom. sing. + pl. works just fine.)
    It's just makes more sense, thing and things

    1)

    example:
    1:
    pualla, puallae, f
    anchilla, ancilae, f
    poeta, poetae, f

    2:
    puer, pueri, m
    capitulum, capitula, n

    3:
    leo, leones, m
    canis, canes, c

    etc...

    2)

    If the stem is different, the plural nominative reflects it well.

    Once you go over each declension. You look at them all together, so that you discover the patterns on your own.

    http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/101/Declension123.pdf

    acc: always -em, -um, -am
    acc. pl: always -is, -os, -es
    acc. for neuters is same as nom. and plurals always end in -a

    *it's important that you discover this for yourself

    3)

    Give extreme importance to to the length of the vowels, (Natural long, diphthongs, before double consonants etc..)
    when learning new words. This is important for speaking and to remember the actual root word.
    Work on your pronunciation when learning new vocab. It's not algebra, right :), it's language. "it's a living thing - Reginald Foster"
    Elect the pronunciation that your are most comfortable with and be content with it. There are books about it. Talk to forum members here ask them why
    they prefer one vs the other.
    When doing written exercises, write down "sounds" and not the memorized letters. Sometimes, misspell words on purpose (ex: -um -> -uu or -u with macron, -ae -> -e etc...)

    4)

    To help with gender, remember them with hic, ille or adjectives

    illa puella,
    ille leo
    hoc tempus
    hic liber

    5)
    Try to learn opposites at the same time.
    bonus - malus
    puer - puella
    plorat - ridet
    difficile - facile
    alba - nigra
    etc...
    Hope this is of value to you.
    Godmy likes this.
  17. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Finally somebody promoting singular/plural nominative remembering over the nom/gen model! ;) It's incredibly handy (mainly for the third declension when you will rule out the neuters just by knowing the noun and you will never create again something as "corpores" or "animales")

    I think I was talking about it in this post http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/third-declension.14696/#post-93504

    << Useful tips, LFC!
    LCF likes this.
  18. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas

    The gen. sing. is quite natural so that there is a one-to-one correspondence
    between endings and declensions. ​ No other case has this property. ​ For
    instance, nom. pl. does not distinguish 3th and 5th declensions or neuters,
    and there can be different endings in the same declensions.

    However, that’s theory. ​ In practice they seem to penetrate into the brain on
    their own.
  19. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    True, genitive sg. is very bullet-proof... but still I usually rather advise beginners to take the risk and "learn" also a nominative plural (or more correctly learn it instead of gen.sg. in the case, when they learn the words separately and not just by reading them in a fitting context) for the sake of the neuters...

    I see it again and again: poor neutra are perpetually discriminated by the learners of Latin and sometimes even by slightly advanced learners: they either have problem even to make a mere plural correctly without the "es/a" hazard or they create an artificial accusative singular for them because they have "overlearnt" putting a noun into a case to make it an object (but that's a different problem now then we were giving tips to and is solved by learning a short accusatival phrase as "corpus/tempus non habeo" or something like that).

    (And the Romance languages put an end to neuters once and for all :p (maybe save the Romanian) )
    Last edited by Godmy, Oct 29, 2012
    LCF likes this.
  20. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    What about singulare/plurale tantum, like virus and aedes? Confusing exceptions would have to be made.

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