Lingua latina per se illustrata - answers?

By efilzeo, in 'General Latin Chat (English)', Sep 5, 2012.

  1. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    I feel that the exceptions are totally ok. And they help to learn/reinforce the convention.

    Some might disagree with me on this but : It's totally OK to make mistakes. When we learn our native language as little kids, we always make grammer mistakes.
    Deep Grammer etc... only comes later in school. Deep understanding of grammer should be build over time, and real study/analysis of it should only be started only by 3d or 4th year (everyones pace is different of course) . I stressed *deep* because, naturally, the goal is the *immersion*, and through the process grammer is of course encountered on many occasions.

    There are also different reasons to learn latin, different objectives.

    PS: I don't see virus, aedes to be confusing at all. Just exceptions to must be learned.

    Just thoughts...
  2. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    But what forms would you say should be memorized for them? Certainly two forms are needed.

    For memorizing neuters, I think that simply learning the gender with the word is the best bet. There is no form but the accusative that will tell you that virus is neuter, and memorizing virus, virus as a beginner who is conditioned to learn the nominative sing. and plur. can only lead to confusion, and they would likely forget the exception and treat virus as fourth declension.

    That is just one example. The genitive convention works both for singular and plural (singuli, -orum) and, for an arbitrary convention, is very effective. Immersion would be fantastic, but the space between chapter one in a Latin primer and the first page of the Aeneid is considerable. Without native speakers and small talk with helpful corrections, using an inefficient convention would lead to bad habits that are set in stone by the time contradictions are found.

    And finally, there's the obvious "we're already stuck in the system" - dictionaries use the genitive convention, and always will throughout our lifetimes. This isn't as important to me as the other points, though.

    EDIT: Of course, your opinion is as good as mine. But, the opinion that goes against convention has to fight a little harder ;)
    Last edited by Nikolaos, Oct 30, 2012
  3. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas
    The more I think about this idea, the more I
    like it. ​ In spite of theoretical defects it seems helpful for
    practical purposes. ​ And who cares about theory?
    LCF likes this.
  4. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    You're a mathematician, and I'm an engineering student :)
  5. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    I think anyone who reads this thread already memorized that virus is a first decl. singl. tantum noun. :) Truth be told, I see no problem with vira :rolleyes:

    There are outlets. Just have to find them (or make them :)). Good quality you tube videos (they once you listen to over and over and over and over and over and over), chat rooms, study partners. etc... ThechMology rulez. :)

    I wonder if people would be interested in a Skype group. I know not everyone would want to list their Skype ID in a public (google indexed) forum. But if there is an interest, this could be managed by a private message. Have to think 'bout this...
  6. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    We know that it is *second* ;) declension because the genitive is viri. Your system completely changes the declensions from genitive-based to nominative-plural-based, so our mutual understanding of the traditional classification doesn't matter.

    True, we did memorize that it is singular only, but we have no question concerning its declension because both forms necessary for the convention were available.

    Vira? How do you know it wouldn't be virua, if it existed at all?
  7. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    :clapping: just say viiirua viiirua viiirua viiirua, viiiroa, viiirea many many times fast :) -> I get > vira :):):)
  8. Nikolaos schmikolaos

    • Censor
    You get from that experiment what you want to get from it. Another would end up with one I in Claudii.

    Besides that, it is a mistake to assume that we have perfect pronunciation. I can't understand non-native English speakers when the speak quickly.
    LCF likes this.
  9. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas
    That’s great!
  10. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    Great, if you don't want to list your ID publicly, just send to to me privately I can manage the group. Maybe a chat room in this forum could be build in as well.
  11. efilzeo New Member

    Location:
    Reggio
    Thank you for your suggestions LCF, the method singular-plural seems logic to me too, I've learnt the first three declensions by now.
    LCF likes this.
  12. Nesrad Member

    Considering how much amateurs seem to love Dessessard's method, I wonder why they have not taken upon themselves to translate it. Possibly for copyright reasons, but that isn't an obstacle for most people.
  13. Timopheus New Member

    I always prefer usiung Dessessard's method too, being that I think it is the best way for communication in any foreign language. I had read two books Lingua Latina per se illustrata, and therefore I can say- they are most beautiful Latin texbooks of all, that I had seen before. I will always be for this method;)
  14. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas

    I did translate half of it in Russian. ​ Typing that all is a routine
    work and rather time consuming at that. ​ One needs strong motivation.
    Nesrad and Godmy like this.
  15. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
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    Águas Santas
    Desessard ≠ Ørberg ;)
    LCF likes this.
  16. Timopheus New Member

    Of course, I agree, but Dessesard and Oberg together are most useful books for studing.
  17. Nesrad Member

    I don't know if anyone actually answered the original question, so I'll give it a go.

    There are "pensa soluta" which are the answers to the exercises. I don't know if they're from the publisher or if they were composed by a third party, only that I have them on my hard drive for the first book (Familia Romana). Send me a pm if you want them, as I will not post them here due to potential copyright issues.

    Now that I've said something useful, let me tell you my opinion of LLPSI. I will be stoned for saying this, but I think it needs to be said. This method is good for classroom use, but I would not recommend it for private study. You will spend as much time trying to figure out what you're supposed to learn as you will spend time actually learning. I strongly advise using a more traditional approach such as Wheelock, or Desessard if you understand French/Italian since his method is specifically tailored to self study.

    Does this site have anything to do with you?
    http://www.linguaeterna.com/ru/enchir/assimil/lectiones.html
  18. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Thanks, truly an interesting resource for me to learn Russian ;)
    (although I must say that after a while of reading I would make one or two latin corrections reading the translations <- I don't feel like correcting Russian)

    Anyway I don't agree much with your views about the LL book, but whatever.
    Last edited by Godmy, Dec 6, 2012
  19. Vasquinho New Member

    Salvete omnes
    Does it really get you to an advanced level Quasus? In the Schola Latina Universali course, which uses the Assimil sain peine latin, they say on the website that you reach an intermediate level with it. Also, I think most Assimil "without pain" in all languages get you to a B level in the CEFR scale?

    Is there anyone here on the forum who has done the Schola Latina Universali course?

    Cheers
  20. Quasus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Águas Santas
    Well, actually that's hard to say. Probably I didn't mean that A/B/C scale, since it's hardly applicable to Latin.

    I had no problems with writing or chatting. I could easily take an author and read it looking up words occasionally - pretty much like you read in a foreign language. Cases and suchlike went automatically, so that was actual reading (albeit with dictionary) and not deciphering.

    I had no occasion to seriously practice conversation, so my speech skills were probably limited. On the other hand, they could be quite bearable given that you don't have to talk with native speakers. I could easily follow speakers with classical pronunciation.

    I confess I read little, but that was not Desessard's fault but mine.

    I'm using the past tense all over, since I haven't been doing Latin for a long time and I've lost a lot of skills. (I think I'll be able to regain them some day.)

    In short, Desessard gives one a working knowledge of Latin. In other words, you train skills rather than gather dead knowledge. Once you actually master the language (imperfectly, of course), you can go in for more formal grammar, etc. - profound studies will make much more sense. That's like with kids: they learn their mother tongue spontaneously and then learn its grammar at school.

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