Nobis vita mori, vivere pena datur.

By Pacis puella, in 'Latin to English Translation', Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Godmy Sun monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia (Cechia)
    (Also "Marcum vivum esse videtur" where the nominative is unspecified unmentioned "id" (id videtur))
    - It is indeed similar to the infinitive in nom+inf construction s which can be omitted....

    No that (hypothetical unwritten) "ut" would be if you had a noun and a pronoun or two nouns, not needed for a noun with an adjective, never for two clauses like this (that would mean something else and most probably a subjunctive would be required)... Forget those constructions you made as the last ones, that's something else.

    I saw Romulus, when he was a king = Romulum regem aspexi (Romulum and regem share cases, therefore they have the "as" relation)
    I saw Romlus when I was a child = Romulum infans aspexi (infans - nominative; ego (in the first person "aspexi") is also a nominative)

    We talk about some deaf "essens"(being) or "as(ut)" which is never written we only treat it like it was there... sorry, I'm tired to death now.
    Last edited by Godmy, Nov 15, 2012
    LCF likes this.
  2. LCF a.k.a. Lucifer

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Apud Inferos
    Thank you. I understand the short/implied forms better now.

    -

    The implied acc. + intf of present is very very clear in my head. Can you help me with time please.

    Romulum infantem aspexi. I saw him being a child with a meaning like "I think he is a child now"
    So then there is not much of difference between Romulum infatem fuisse apsexi?
    Then what about with abl. abs. Romulum infante aspexi.

    -

    Romulum infans aspexi. Ok I got it. So the gramaticaly correct long form of this would be: Dum ego ipse infans fui/essem eum aspexi.


    Thans
    Last edited by LCF, Nov 15, 2012
  3. Acsacal Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Ile-de-France
    I would translate very simply as more or less found by other forum members:
    • nobis=> to us
    • vita => by life
    • mori => dying = the death (subject of datur)
    • vita=> life
    • pena=> by pain (subject of datur)
    • datur=> is given
    i.e. we are given death by life, life by pain.
    The only remark about previous explanation attempts : there is no *datur esse in Latin, you must choose between present datur and perfect datus, a, um esse !
    Last edited by Acsacal, Nov 15, 2012
  4. Kosmokrator Active Member

    Location:
    Pléroma
    vita is nominative (as well as pena, can't be by life) so more or less not looking at the context "To us life is given to die (as death) and to live is given as pain"

    life sux in other words ... as this pentameter does.

    i wonder if it may also be an exhortation to take arms ... don't have time to look closely though.
    Last edited by Kosmokrator, Nov 15, 2012
    Bitmap likes this.
  5. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Acsacal, this was my interpretation too, before I knew they were nominative. And I think datur esse can exist like dicitur esse for ex.
    Ille dicitur esse vir magnus...
    Mori datur esse vita...

    I wasn't saying datur esse was a tense, he! :D

    Yes it is.

    Just to clarify what Godmy explained about ut/as implied: it is when it means "as" as in "as he is/was", not "as" as "like". Volat ut avis (he flies as/like a bird) can't be said without ut of course, volat avis just means "the bird flies" and nothing else. Actually in Augustum infantem vidi, if you have to imply something (personally thus far I didn't think to imply anything, I just saw infantem as an apposition) I think it's better to imply essens rather than ut.
  6. malleolus i-Tuepferlreiter

    • Civis Illustris
    Sorry if I appear somewhat confused
    It's life is given us to die and to live is given us as punishment , isn't it ? Sorry but somehow I got lost amid all the posts.
  7. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes, literally: To us to die (is given as being) life, to live is given (as being) a punishment.

    Nobis vita (esse) mori (datur), vivere (esse) pena datur.
  8. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Saxonia
    I think Kosmokrator is pretty right in his assessment that this pentametre sucks
  9. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Maybe, how could I know as I don't know sh** about meter...

    Actually, why is this called pentametre? The number of syllables isn't a multiple of five...:D And how is this supposed to work more or less? Like how many heavy syllables and how many light ones, in what order?

    Nóbis víta mori, vívere péna datur... Heavy, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy, light, light, heavy... It seems like it's each time two lights for one heavy, except in the beginning where there are two heavy ones. If I'm not completely mistaking as I'm not specialist of vowel quantity either at all.

    Ah, maybe it's called a pentametre because it's divided into groups of three syllables (light, light, heavy) + only the first two heavy syllables which don't fit the pattern. 3+2= 5...
    This is just a complete guess, please don't laugh to much at me if I'm completely off the point :D...
    Last edited by Pacis puella, Nov 15, 2012
  10. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    It's dactylic rather than iambic. See this thread for an explanation.
  11. Acsacal Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Ile-de-France
    Actually there are two types of Latin poetry.
    • In classical Latin poetry verses are a combination of feet, themselves a combination of long and short non elided syllabs. Roughly speaking long syllabs are those containing a long vowel, or containing a diphthong, or followed by two consonnants, short syllabs the other ones. There is no concept of rime.
    • Eventually, when the length of vowels was no longer perceived by Latin speakers, a new style of poetry was invented, similar to the present English or German ones and with feet based on a combination of strssed and unstressed syllabs.
    You can find explanations on Latin poetry in the beginning of the boocklet "Cornélie ou le latin sans pleurs."
  12. malleolus i-Tuepferlreiter

    • Civis Illustris
    To us life is given in order to die (definitely Senecan if you compare it to cottidie morimur ), to live is given as punishment.
    Nobis vita (esse) mori (datur), vivere (esse) pena datur.
    Sorry again , but why add esse ?
    It really won't make any difference , since you are done with the translation , but as there are several examples in the whole lot of the Liber where infinitives are used instead of gerunds (i.e. mori instead of ad moriendum) I don't really see the need to add esse.
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  13. Kosmokrator Active Member

    Location:
    Pléroma
    There is no need to add a esse here (mori is equal to mors) neither to take mori as ad moriendum; "to us dying is given as life while to live is given as a punishment (or pain)" it's an exhortation to take arms.
    Last edited by Kosmokrator, Nov 16, 2012
  14. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Then, either vivere should also be an infinitive of purpose, and the second part would be "punishment is given in order to live", or esse must still be implied in the second part.

    I really didn't think of an infinitive of purpose, though - neither did anyone else before you, now :) - I guess that's because I'm not very familiar with the phenomenon. But it makes sense.
    You've read it?
  15. Kosmokrator Active Member

    Location:
    Pléroma
    infinitive mori expresses mors (a name, death)

    in it. il morir per noi è vita (as in greek, italian, in english you use dying i think)
  16. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Ok but still, I think you have to imply something like esse, for vita and mori, two nominatives, can't both be subjects of datur, they need a link of some kind, no? Otherwise one of them should be in dat.

    Kosmokrator, I read the notes in Italian in the book and, even though I don't know Italian, having French as a mother tongue and knowing some Latin and Spanish I manage to understand maybe 1/4 of them; but there's something that comes back all the time: what does "su rasura" means?
    Last edited by Pacis puella, Nov 16, 2012
  17. Kosmokrator Active Member

    Location:
    Pléroma
    rasura = emendation (written on emendation)

    it's a latinism

    i dont know how to say it in english ... consider mori as death and you will understand what i mean
  18. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Like an apposition?
  19. Kosmokrator Active Member

    Location:
    Pléroma
    yes
  20. Pacis puella γραμματικωτατη

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    An apposition in this context seems weird to me, I didn't know it could be used that way. But you may be right I don't know everything.

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