Precēs tibi nōn prōsunt.

By Siegfried Zaytsev, in 'Latin Beginners', Jul 5, 2018.

  1. From LLPSI (p. 217):

    "At propter hoc ipsum" inquit Iūlius "tē verberābō, homō nēquam, quod nihil fēcistī! Officium tuum est cūrāre nē ovēs aberrent nēve ā lupō rapiantur. Precēs tibi nōn prōsunt. Prehendite eum, agricolae, et tenēte!"

    Why is it "prōsunt" and not "prōderunt"? In English (and in Russian), this sentence will be rendered in the future tense.
  2. AoM nulli numeri

    • Civis Illustris
    Present tense seems fine in English, too.
  3. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Well, in Czech the tense is technically present, but it's the perfective aspect, which makes it future by definition... Russian will be about the same. Latin doesn't have grammatical lexical aspects so...
  4. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    In what sort of translation? Because, for my part, I would have used the future: 'entreaties won't help you', and the present - 'entreaties do not help you' would seem a bit odd unless the shepherd was beginning to say something at the same time. On the other hand, it might just be the phrasing, as in such phrases as 'entreaties are useless' the present seems more natural, as against 'entreaties will be useless'.
    Siegfried Zaytsev likes this.
  5. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    But even in Czech, if one really wanted to, the imperfective aspect present could be forced there... (one may then say it sounds less idiomatic) but that's what Latin expresses.

    You need to learn to think inside the language and not translate in your head all the time (once you are sure about the grammar), in Latin a present state is described, no matter how any other language expresses it, so have just that thought on your mind ("describing the present state") and the Latin words and remove any other language from your mind for that moment.
  6. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    "Begging is not helping you"?
  7. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris
    It would seem odd, I think, if the begging was actually future and not ongoing at the time of speech.


    But come to think of it, the hocc ipsum does imply that the shepherd has said something just previously, so I guess it is actually the case that the prayers' lack of success is envisaged in the present.
  8. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Yeah, I mean, I have no problem with the concept of the present here, I'm just interested about the [potential] idioms in respective languages... (other than Latin)
  9. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Just think: 'There is no use in praying.'

    Latin logic (& English also) is often 'immediate future = present'.
    Godmy likes this.
  10. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Consider English: 'If you read the instructions, then we can talk.' Neither of those clauses uses future where most Slavic languages would, isn't that right? Like this?
    Если ты будешь читать инструкцию, то мы поговорим.
  11. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
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    That's right, but wouldn't you argue that the if clause even in English is semantically (my favourite term, right?) future anyway? It reminds me of the Slavic languages perfective future tense, which is in fact a perfective present conjugation, but not in meaning...
  12. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
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    ^ but the Russian example (I don't read Russian much) shows there a real future tense in the protasis (real both by conjugation and meaning: that's the imperfective version of the future with our only verb that retained the original future conjugation: to be + the infinitive forms).
  13. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    I absolutely agree with that, which is why I felt a little guilty with my example.

    I have a comparative Slavic grammar (think it's Routledge), & from the looks of it, the matter is much more complicated in South Slavic, where, at least in Bulgarian, the imperfective/perfective systems are fully conjugated. That is, a perfective verb isn't necessarily a future one, as in Russkij (& Czech I'm guessing? Polish too, Уважаемый Поляк?)
    Godmy likes this.
  14. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    You are right, when I was rereading my posts, I was wondering whether I could say "Slavic languages" in general, because I remember some stark differences in the future tenses (like the derivation of the verb "want" used like an auxiliary verb) from my brief study of Serbo-Croatian... (and Bulgarian then, of course, is an extraordinary creature grammatically entirely :p)
  15. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    ... but then I thought you would focus your attention on Russian only anyway and I would create an illusion of a more or less correct statement : P
  16. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Then again, Polish seems very innovative as far as verbal morphology, what with forms like chciałbyś 'thou would'st like'.
  17. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Oh, yes, it pretty much recreated simple forms where no simple forms existed anymore!

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who considers it extraordinary : -)
    Hemo Rusticus likes this.
  18. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Goddammit, all this talk has got me hot 'n bothered. I really can't decide, if I were to one day go to grad school (which would take more than I've got in me, to be frank), whether I'd focus on Balto-Slavic or Indo-Aryan... We privileged folk have it toooooo ruff.
    Pacifica and Dantius like this.
  19. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    bylem = byl jsem (Czech) = fuī

    ^ wrong Polish orthography, for sure, from my side
  20. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    Hahahaha... go to Balto-Slavic and pursue the theories/hypotheses that claim that there was never, in fact, a single Balto-Slavic language, the similarities between them to be explained otherwise :p
    Hemo Rusticus likes this.

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