Predam

By Symposion, in 'Reading Latin', Feb 9, 2016.

  1. Araneus Umbraticus Lector

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Norvegia
    From these excerpts that certainly seems to be the case, yes.
    Symposion likes this.
  2. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    Thank you for your insight Araneus! :D
  3. Araneus Umbraticus Lector

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Norvegia
    Glad to help!
  4. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    Saxo Grammaticus tells after that in 14:12:6 of Gesta Danorum:


    Igitur cum pleraque sibi ex uoluntate respondere cognosceret, foelicibus fortune experimentis euectus in omnem se Suetiam effundere statuit.

    This certainly agrees with what we discussed above. The question now is... Does the Latin verb effundere here mean to conquer (all of Sweden). I understand the verb to mean to pour out as can be seen here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=effundo
  5. Araneus Umbraticus Lector

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Norvegia
    The L&S gives this explanation for its use with se:
    a. With se, or mid. of persons, to pour out in a multitude, to rush out, spread abroad (a favorite expression with the historians)

    Perhaps it could be interpreted as that he decided (statuit) to conquer all of Sweden, if we understand se effundere to mean "to spread oneself - i.e. spread one's influence/rule".
    Symposion likes this.
  6. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    Thank you for your comment. I interpret that Konge Svend Eriksen af Danmark deceided to spread out his dominance over all of Sweden of that time!
  7. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    How come Saxo Grammaticus writes imbelliam in 14:11:3 of Gesta Danorum? I would have used imbellem!
  8. Dantius Homo Sapiens

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    in orbe lacteo
    Could you give us the full sentence? imbellia is a word (a noun), but I need the full sentence to know whether he's using that:
    [IMG]
  9. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    The first part was universally true, the second is more complicated. Depends on the region. In the ecclesiastical style (reflecting Italian norms) <c> before <i,e> plus vowel is pronounced as ch.

    According to wiki (don't know why it has such a bad rep tbh) that pronunciation wouldn't have been universal at all back in the era of the Gesta Danorum. Presumably the main determiner was the speaker's native language, or at least the native language of the monks of whatever monastery they learned Latin in (or the native language of the monks from the monastery whose norms that monastery learned/adopted).

    In early French and Spanish, but not in Italian, original Latin t/c before an i/e in hiatus underwent palatalization and merged eventually into the sound ts, later reducing to s. Italian kept them distinct, e.g. puteum > puzzo versus bracchium > braccio.

    Since a lot of Spain was under Moorish occupation, and the French are geographically closer to Denmark and for example significantly affected the traditional English pronunciation of Latin, it seems likely that, as usual, the French are to blame for this orthographic tomfoolery.
  10. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    Saxo Grammaticus seems to use the word imbelliam as an adjective describing King Sverker and not as a noun. Here is the sentence that I refer to:


    Maximam siquidem inuadende eius opportunitatem tum ob senium imbelliamque Suerconis
  11. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    Edit: nvm. The better question is, how is it supposed to be an adjective there ?

    To be an adjective, first it'd have to be a word that can be an adjective, but also it would have to match Suerconis in gender, case, and number. It meets only the third of those criteria.
  12. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    That is why I would have used imbellem.

    Does it not say in the sentence that the Sverker's high age and unwillingness to fight was one reason that made this the very right opportunity for King Svend Eriksen of Denmark to invade Sweden?
  13. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    Since we know for a fact that such a noun exists, it's reasonable to conclude that imbelliam is not meant as an adjective.

    That bolded bit is pretty much how you translate senium imbelliamque suerconis. Although it's more like 'unsuitability', but close enough.

    You (correctly, and puzzlingly) didn't use an adjective to translate the word in question.
  14. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    I can't find the noun imbellia in my dictionaries and that puzzled me.

    You would translate it so that Sverker was old and unsuitable to fight (because of his age?) rather than being peaceful (pacifistic?) and unwilling to fight?
  15. rothbard Active Member

    Location:
    London
    A Latin-Italian dictionary I have translates it as "ineptitude for war", and says it was used by Gellius.
  16. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    Ob: because of

    Senium: the old age

    Imbelliamque: and unsuitability for war

    Suerconis: of Suerco
  17. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    Saxo Grammaticus entire sentence is here below written in Latin:

    Maximam siquidem inuadende eius opportunitatem tum ob senium imbelliamque Suerconis, tum ob factiones inter eundem et plebem recenter ortas – nam Ioannem agrestes concionantem occiderant - arbitrabatur.

    I cannot find the nominative form of the participle concionantem in any reliable dictionary. What does the word mean? I also wonder if it was Saxo himself or people in general assumed that the killing of Johan Sverkersson led to the struggles between King Sverker and the people which in its turn led to the unsuitability of war. I mean what does Saxo try to tell by using the verb arbitrabatur?
  18. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    present participle of concionor
    Looks like the peasants killed him whilst he was preaching
  19. Symposion Member

    Location:
    Helsingia (Finnia)
    The form concionor buffled me as I find it only written as contionor in my dictionaries.

    So how is it with the function of the verb arbitrabatur?
  20. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    As I am sure you know, t often becomes c in mediaeval manuscripts.

    Arbitrabatur goes with the rest of the sentence. I don't know the context but to me it reads like:
    It was considered his best opportunity for invasion both because of Suerconis being old and unwarlike, and because divisions had recently arisen between him and the common people (because John had been killed by the peasants whilst preaching)

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