Pronunciation Issues With Hymnus Europae

By R. Seltza, in 'Pronunciation, Spelling and Listen to Latin', Mar 25, 2018.

  1. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    I didn't want to speak about the lengths because it seems to me sometimes it's impossible to do them right in a song unless the lyrics are perfectly composed that the long vowels coincide with the long tones etc. (if not, breaking the vowel lengths can actually be harmonically/aesthetically a better solution than to keep them as they are). Otherwise, (if it's not a song) I'm quite sensitive when it comes to vowel lengths, but I'm quite benevolent when it comes to singing (like, I like the Latin songs by Enya).
    Last edited by Godmy, Aug 27, 2018
  2. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Bohemia
    In Czech, e.g., it happens sometimes that the short vowels coincide with a long tone in a song and it must be sung long...
  3. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yeah, it seems like things sometimes want to be stretched a bit in music. For example, if a line ends in a (normally) short "a", it would often sound weird to me to end on a short "a" — it's like the last note usually wants to be stretched.
    Godmy likes this.
  4. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    For example, the "a" of vela in the end here (at about 2:15) lingers on a bit, but, whether I'm right or wrong, it wouldn't sound so good to me to end the song abruptly on a sharp, short "a".

  5. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Right, according to the Classical model. But to say they're not comparable on that grounds is to ignore the possibly that, as the language developed, those two sounds (i.e. the diphthong, which in any case was borrowed from Greek except in a few native words like 'heu' and 'seu'; and the disyllabic 'eu' in the pronoun) may have merged, however different their origin.

    Suffice it to say that this song is neither in perfect accordance with the Classical (restored) model, nor uninfluenced by regionalism (which in this case is German).
  6. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    By the way, is there a sound file somewhere on this forum which gives an accurate pronunciation of the diphthong "eu" in words like Europa or Zeus?

    I actually can't really imagine what it sounds like and the closest example I can picture is something like the English pronunciation.




    I suppose eum also makes a bit of a difference in that the u was nasalised there, which might have helped to prevent any diphthongisation ... at least I can't recall any example from poetry where eum would have to be read as a single long syllable.
    Last edited by Bitmap, Aug 28, 2018
  7. Iáson Cívis Illústris

    • Civis Illustris

    Graphically, they're written the same, so that seems plausible enough for Medieval Latin; but as long as the language was learnt from native speakers, it seems a bit radical to suppose that a diphthong would turn into two separate vowels like that. Note that seu becomes Romanian sau, at any rate, which is still a diphthong; and eu becomes [ev] or [ef] in Modern Greek.
  8. Hemo Rusticus The Lizard King

    • Civis Illustris
    Does anyone know of a reliable reflex of eum in Romance? I mean, the pronoun is wasn't inherited at all by itself, I don't think, with ille taking its place. The closest I can get is S aquel or OI istesso, but neither is of any real use.

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