Propterea captivus ductus est populus

By Rocit, in 'Latin to English Translation', Apr 14, 2014.

  1. Victus Member

    Location:
    Brazil
    Well, then you have elleboro in the dative OR the ablative. Translating, it'd either be
    "The insane mind prepares/looks ahead/previews images to hellebore,"
    or, using an ablative absolute,
    "The insane mind looks ahead/prepares/et caetera by means of hellebore the images."

    Neither of which make much sense to me considering the next sentence. Unless, of course, the hellebore is allowing the head to preview, in which case its absence could cause the results of the last sentence.

    But, again, I could be talking out of my arse here.
  2. Laurentius Weebus Maximus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Antium
    Oh, maybe "quod" is referred to "caput"?
  3. Victus Member

    Location:
    Brazil
    ... I just freaking saw the original, and that "?" is a mistake.

    It'd be something like

    "He who would eat boiled and unnaloyed meats,
    When he could have nectar and Ambrosia,
    Through Hellebore the insane mind previews images,
    Of things he could not tell apart fiction from reality"

    Or at least that's what I'm getting. I'll let someone more experienced finish that up.
  4. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    I take it to mean, rather, "the head incurable to hellebore", i.e. so insane that it cannot be healed.
    I suggested as much in post #14. And going by the book that Aurifex linked to, it doesn't look like there's a question mark there after all. The irksome colon, on the other hand, remains.
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    Location:
    Belgium
    Elixis epulis, assisque accumbere, divum
    Quod potuit vesci nectare et Ambrosia?
    Prospicit elleboro caput insanabile: pictas
    Res neque secernit fabulam ab historia.

    More among the lines of:

    While it (lit. "which") could have sat in front of boiled and roasted dishes
    and fed on the nectar and ambrosia of the gods,
    the head incurable with/for hellebore sees painted things
    and doesn't distinguish fable from history.
  6. Laurentius Weebus Maximus

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    Location:
    Antium
    Oh sorry, didn't notice. :doh:
    Maybe "The incurable head that could sit..."?
  7. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris

    Though it had once been able to recline before fine boiled
    and roasted dishes, and to feast on the nectar and ambrosia of the gods,
    a head that cannot be cured with hellebore gazes at painted
    images, but is unable to distinguish fable from history.
    Laurentius and Victus like this.
  8. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    This ſomehow reminds me of the ſaying that 'the way to a man's heart is through his ſtomach.'
  9. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

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    The connection of insanity with excess and gluttony is an interesting one.
  10. Abbatiſſæ Scriptor Senex

    • Civis Illustris
    The illuſtration also seems reminiſcent of 'panem et circenses' being employ'd to appeaſe the Roman populus, which if not actually 'led away captive' was arguably reduced to ſuch ſtate.
  11. limetrees Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Hibernia
    I don’t think it has anything to do with gluttony.
    The point, and the link with the Isaiah quote, is that you need knowledge, and not false images of it.
    The food image is just a analogy: instead of eating good food or nectar and ambrosia, the foolish person feasts on images (and doesn't know real from false): one doesn’t acquire wisdom with futile nonsense.

    Isaiah, 5.13

    Therefore is my people led away captive, because they had not knowledge
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

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    Location:
    Belgium
    So it is "though it could have reclined..." rather than "though it had once been able to recline..."
  13. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    Not to gainsay the reasonableness of your interpretation, but are you sure you're not overreaching when you insist it has nothing to do with gluttony? And I suppose we're to understand the preceding two verses are mere coincidence?

    11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
    12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.

    I hardly think it's "just an analogy".


    ETA: Anyway, what I mean to say is that I don't think these interpretations are in any way mutually exclusive: the idea of the passage, after all, is that the people of Judah are overindulging in the sumptuous pleasures of the flesh, which are ultimately illusory, just pictures, if you will, as opposed to enjoying the true spiritual sustenance that is the knowledge of God.
    Last edited by Imber Ranae, Apr 14, 2014
  14. limetrees Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Hibernia
    Fair point, well made: and I stand corrected. The earlier verses of the Isaiah, yes, do oppose gluttony and real knowledge.
    But this text uses the image of a man who mistakes a picture for real food as an analogy for one who mistakes futile nonsense for wisdom.
    Futilibus solida haut capitur sapientia nugis:
    Nec pictis dapibus pellitur esuries.

    Eating the food in this text would be analogous to gaining the true knowledge.

    Also note that the Isaiah verse 5.13 itself does link (if unclearly) knowledge with eating:

    Therefore is my people led away captive, because they had not knowledge, and their nobles have perished with famine, and their multitude were dried up with thirst.
  15. Imber Ranae Ranunculus Iracundus

    • Civis Illustris
    I don't disagree. See my edit above.
  16. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    Well, I for one consider myself insane but hate excess and gluttony...
  17. limetrees Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Hibernia
    Se insanum habere: profecto; optime. :)
    Sed qui vitia odit homines odit. :)
  18. Matthaeus Vemortuicida strenuus

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Varsovia
    Ita vero, ego misanthropos. :devilsmile:

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