1. Timotheus New Member

    Salvete omnes! :hi:

    I am looking for a translation for this poem. Gratias tibi ago!

  2. cepasaccus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Who wrote this poem? This is a modern poem, isn't it?
  3. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    My initial guess is this is from the Carmina Burana--it cetainly fits the mood and rhythm of poems found in this manuscript.

    The poem is clearly taken from this page (the error flos e decus for flos et decus is reproduced), but I've not as of yet been able to find it in the Carmina Burana MSS.

    Anyway, let me get this started; this could be an interesting group project:

    Sidus clarum
    puellarum,
    flos e(t) decus omnium,
    rosa veris,
    quae videris
    clarior quam lilium.


    "A gleaming star
    among girls,
    the flower and glory of everything,
    You who seem to be
    a rose of spring
    more lovely than the lily."

    I suspect the "lily" here--especially in springtime--is a reference to Christ. If it weren't for the rest of the poem, I'd say this was about Christ's mother Mary, but I don't think a sacred Christian text would talk about Citharea...
  4. Timotheus New Member

    Salve!
    Yes, that is the page where I got the text from. A fragment of the poem is in this Teach Yourself: Beginner Latin book I have. I looked to see if there was any more to the poem and found that site. The book I have says it is 12th century, Anonymous.
  5. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Tui forma
    me de norma
    regulari proiicit.
    Tuus visus
    atque risus
    Veneri me subicit.

    Your beauty
    drives me forth
    from the normal pattern (presumably pattern of verse)
    Your appearance
    and your smile
    make me subject to Venus

    The metre is very reminiscent of the Carmina Burana...

    But I can't quite figure out why it is tui forma :doh:
  6. QMF Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Virginia, US
    Tui forma-that is, the form "of you." I think both tua and tui can be used in this context (I've never been completely certain of when the genitive forms of ego, tu, nos, and vos are used and when the possessive adjectives are used instead. Yet another one of those things that I sort of know intuitively but could never actually try to explain.)
  7. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Thanks QMF. That is what I figured it must be, although I can't find support for this in either the NLS or Sidwell's Mediaeval Latin...

    Which makes you wonder why the author chose this, rather than tua. Both would fit the metre, and he/she uses tuus visus later on :wondering:
  8. QMF Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Virginia, US
    Actually...they are not the same metrically. Tui is short-long; tua is short-short. That may be why the poet chose to use tui instead of tua.
  9. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    You may well be right, although I had the impression that the vowel length was not usually considered in Medieaval Latin poetry...
  10. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything,
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    ***********************************

    Proiicit? Is that an alternate spelling of proiecit?
  11. QMF Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Virginia, US
    I was not familiar with that...this may very well be the case. In an accentual meter they would indeed be the same. Care to clear this up, Iynx? You and Cinefactus are the most mediaevally experienced of the lot of us I think, and Cinefactus is as uncertain as I am in this case.

    By the way: amusing aacbbc rhyme scheme and meter there, Iynx.
  12. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.
  13. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    The rhyme-scheme is not mine, of course; it's in the Latin.

    And yes, I think this is stress-meter, not the weight-meter of classical times.

    I think if you read it out loud you will hear the pattern:

    Sidus clarum
    puellarum,
    flos e decus omnium,
    rosa veris,
    quae videris
    clarior quam lilium.


    XO XO
    xO XO
    XO XO XOx
    XO XO
    XO XO
    XO xX XOx

    Tui forma
    me de norma
    regulari proiicit.
    Tuus visus
    atque risus
    Veneri me subicit

    XO XO
    XO XO
    xO XO XOx
    XO XO
    XO XO
    XO xX XOx

    I have chosen to use mostly iambs where the Latin has trochees because I am not skilled enough to do otherwise. But I have tried to keep the basic pattern of syllables.

    In keeping with my usual policy in group translations I have not looked ahead. If this turns out to be a religious poem the light-verse tone I have adopted may end up looking pretty silly.


    **********************************************************

    I have read a lot of the Carmina Burana, but I don't remember this one. Can anyone cite a number?
  14. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Funny what happens when one gets old. Sitting around late at night, translating some Latin verse, really rather silly verse it seems to be, when one comes upon a few harmless lines:

    Tuus visus
    atque risus
    Veneri me subicit...


    And all of a sudden one is seeing and hearing and smelling, for heaven's sake, a girl one hasn't really seen or heard of in half a century. Funny what happens, when one gets old.
  15. QMF Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Virginia, US
    Indeed so it is...though admittedly the Latin's rhymes are not quite as light-hearted as yours.

    And how lucky you are to be old, Iynx...how lucky you are. So many things to look back on.
  16. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I'm reminded of a line from the film Citizen Kane, when Mr. Bernstein--probably Kane's greatest admirer--says how "A fellow will remember a lot of things you wouldn't think he'd remember. You take me. One day, back in 1896, I was crossing over to Jersey on the ferry, and as we pulled out, there was another ferry pulling in, and on it there was a girl waiting to get off. A white dress she had on. She was carrying a white parasol. I only saw her for one second. She didn't see me at all, but I'll bet a month hasn't gone by since that I haven't thought of that girl."

    That speech has always stuck with me; what odd and magical things, our memories...
  17. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pro te deae
    Cithareae
    libens porto vincula,
    et alati
    sui nati
    corde fero spicula.

    Ur in lignis
    ardet ignis
    siccis cum subducitur,
    sic mens mea
    pro te, dea,
    fervet et comburitur.


    Literally this third stanza must be:

    "For you I glady bear the bonds of the goddess
    Cytherean [that is, Venus], and carry the points of their winged offspring in [my] heart."

    I don't know Ur as a Latin word (except as the name of Abram's hometown in Genesis). I suspect this present Ur is a mistranscription of Ut, and that the fourth stanza means literally:

    "As the fire blazes in the dry fuel-wood as it is pulled away, so my mind for you, goddess, burns and is consumed."

    Timotheus: is it Ut rather than Ur?

    More broadly: can anyone identify this poem by number in the Carmina Burana? In an effort to clear up the Ur/Ut question I have looked for it in the (extensive) portion of the Beuren material availble in the Bibliotheca Augustana, but have been unable to find it.
  18. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    would you consider the last part of the 3rd verse to be:

    and I bear the arrows of her winged offspring...?

    I presume it is a reference to Cupid...
  19. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Yes, I'm sure you're right, Cinefacte.
  20. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Dic quis durus,
    quis tam purus,
    carens omni crimine,
    esse potest,
    quem non dotes
    tuae possint flectere?


    Name anyone who can be so hard,
    who is so pure,
    lacking all guilt,
    upon whom your talents
    could not prevail

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