1. cepasaccus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    My try, although I am not really sure about its meaning.

    Vivat Cato,
    Dei dato
    qui sic fuit rigidus,
    in amore
    tuo flore
    captus erit fervidus.

    It may live Cato,
    Give this god
    who was so severe,
    in Love
    with two flowers
    he will be captured hot blooded
  2. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    My take would be:

    If Cato were to live
    through a gift of God
    who (ie Cato) was stern like this
    having been captured
    in love by your youthful beauty
    he would be blazing (with passion)

    I would have thought that it should be sit fervidus to fit with the conditional, but I guess it wouldn't fit with the metre...
  3. QMF Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Virginia, US
    For some reason I thought that "vivat" was jussive, not conditional (I've never seen a conditional without a conjunction like "si" before, though I admittedly haven't seen all that many conditionals). Thoughts?
  4. cepasaccus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I now know what I did wrong with the dei dato, but I again wonder if the Romans had the same problems reading poems.
  5. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I think you have it QmF; it's sort jussive/concessive, with the second line a parenthetical comment:

    Let Cato live,
    by the grace of god,
    he who was so stern:
    (even he) in love
    by your flower
    would be eagerly taken.

    The Cato here is not me:) Cato the younger, who lived in the time of Caesar, was noted for his severity and his rigidness.
  6. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.

    For you, my dear,
    I'm glad to wear
    her shakles Cytherean;
    and Cupid's dart
    within my heart
    I bear without complainin'.

    ******************************************

    I've decided that I earlier misunderstood the next stanza. Of course ligni sicci is plural, and cannot be the subject of subducitur. It must be the fire that is being "drawn out" -- no, better "raised" or "built up".

    "As the fire burns when it is built up in dry wood..."


    As when the fire
    blazes higher
    when dry wood is laid on,
    goddess my mind
    for you, I find,
    is all burnt up and gone.

    ******************************************************

    That's interesting, Cato Chicagoensis. I has assumed that it was Cato the Elder that was meant, renowned not only for his rigid moral rectitude, but also for his misogyny.
  7. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    I am not sure if flos in this stanza is simply flower. The OLD gives one of its meanings as youthful beauty (usu. as a source of sexual attraction), chastity, virginity. I think it is probably a double meaning, both referring back to the flower of verse 1, and the latter meaning as well...
  8. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Seeing as we still have a way to go...

    Fore suum
    crinem tuum
    Venus ipsa cuperet,
    si videret;
    et doloret
    suum quod exuperet.


    Venus would have wished
    your locks
    to be her own,
    if she had seen them
    and mourned
    because they excelled her own
  9. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Dic quis durus,
    quis tam purus,
    carens omni crimine,
    esse potest,
    quem non dotes
    tuae possint flectere?


    Whose heart's so dure,
    whose soul's so pure,
    and free from any sin,
    that once he sees
    all your dowries
    he'll still be what he's been?

    1. Clearly this is not a religious poem in any conventional sense.

    2. Please note the numerous not-quite-rhymes: crimine /flectere and potest /dotes, for example. This is important, I think, because it gives us license (indeed calls upon us) to do the same sort of thing in the English. Of course I could have found a "better" rhyme for "Cytherean"; I chose "complainin' " purely in imitation of the original Latin :) .
  10. cepasaccus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Iynx, your are the best! I will never be as good as you.
  11. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Vivat Cato,
    Dei dato
    qui sic fuit rigidus,
    in amore
    tuo flore
    captus erit fervidus.


    I think you're absolutely right about the "flower" here Cinefacte. I suspect the comma at the end of the third line to be the work of some modern editor, and suspect that the author in fact may have been having some fun with the whole rigidus ...fervidus clause :oops:

    Hooray for Cato,
    who by God's gift,
    was so rigid
    in love
    he too
    by your flower
    would warmly be captured.

    Or in what one may loosely call verse:

    Cato be praised
    who by God's grace
    lived rigid and uprightly--
    in love e'en he
    by your flower'd be
    most warmly caught, and tightly.
  12. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Our story so far:

    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.

    For you, my dear,
    I'm glad to wear
    her shakles Cytherean;
    and Cupid's dart
    within my heart
    I bear without complainin'.

    As when the fire
    blazes higher
    when dry wood is laid on,
    goddess my mind
    for you, I find,
    is all burnt up and gone.

    Whose heart's so dure,
    whose soul's so pure,
    and free from any sin,
    that once he sees
    all your dowries
    he'll still be what he's been?

    Cato be praised
    who by God's grace
    lived rigid and uprightly--
    in love: e'en he
    by your flower'd be
    most warmly caught, and tightly.
  13. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Fore suum
    crinem tuum
    Venus ipsa cuperet,
    si videret;
    et doloret
    suum quod exuperet.


    I'm glad we've got Cinefactus here; were it not for his able translation I would have mistaken exuperet for exuberet; with his help I see that it is in fact a form of ex(s)upero. But wait a minute. Shouldn't it then be exupAret? And for that matter shouldn't it be cupIret?

    I'm also still not sure I understand the sequence of tenses here. Fore is the same as futurum esse, right? But cupIret, videret, doloret, and exupAret are all imperfect subjunctives, are they not?

    Well, I suppose the general sense is clear enough:


    And oh, such hair
    Venus would wear;
    and she would sore regret her,
    most envious,
    on seeing yours,
    that yours is so much better.


    But can someone clear up the grammar for me here?
  14. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    should it be:

    "Venus would have wished your locks to become her own", do you think?
  15. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    BTW I must confess that it was Mr Whitaker not I who picket the difference between exuperet and exuberet ;)

    Frons et gula
    sine ruga
    et visus angelicus
    te caelestem,
    non terrestrem,
    denotant hominibus.

    Your face and neck
    without a wrinkle
    and angelic face
    indicate to men
    that you are from heaven
    not from earth
  16. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Yes, Cinefacte, I'm sure that's the sense. But I'm puzzled by

    (a) the future form-- if that's what it is-- followed by the imperfect subjunctives-- if that's what they are-- and by

    (b) the odd forms (?misspellings?) of cupiret and exsuparet-- if that's what they are.
  17. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I think cuperet is correct: cupio, cupere, cupivi, cupitus. Exsuperet is present subjunctive (imperfect would be exsuperAREt

    The imperfects cuperet and videret are part of a present contrary-to-fact conditional (the grammar for which rather perversely used imperfect subjunctive): "Venus would desire...if she were to see."

    Crinem tuum fore suum is acc. w. inf. after cuperet - "(She would have desired) that your hair would (soon) be hers." This is a good example of the greater care Latin takes with the future tense; English would naturally translate this as "Venus would have hoped your hair to be hers", but Latin correctly notes that the "hoping" and "seeing" must occur before the hair could be possessed.

    Doloret is present subjunctive--"she would weep (now)"--as is exsuperet - "it would far surpass (now)". The poet uses pres. subj. because in his opinion her hair really does surpass Venus', even if an actual comparison of locks cannot be made: "she would weep, because it would surpass hers (i.e. if we were to compare them)."

    That last paragraph illustrates another subtle point of Latin grammar. When a writer gives a reason for something (i.e. a clause headed by quod, quia, quoniam), he/she will use the indicative if the reason is either obvious or undisputed. On the other hand, the subjunctive expresses the opinion of the writer, or at least the fact that the reason has no hope of being verified.
  18. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Thank you Cato. But whooo. A fellow can perhaps be forgiven for not getting this right on the first pass. So:

    Fore is the future infinitive of sum.

    I thought cupio was of the Fourth. Should have checked. It's of the Third, as you say, and cuperet is imperfect, like videret.

    And I see where I went wrong with ex(s)upero: I mistook the -er- at the end of the base for an imperfect marker.

    But I'm still bewildered by doloret. It's a present subjunctive, you say? Of what verb? If the verb were doleo, the present subjunctive would be doleat? And the imperfect (for that matter) dolEret?. Dolare ("to hew") would have present subjunctive active dolet, would it not? And imperfect dolaret? Dolito? No, that doesn't fit either. I'm probably being thick, but I still don't get this. I have looked for a verb doloro, dolorare, but have thus far failed to find such a beast. Can you help me further, Cato?
  19. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    I suspect that it is supposed to be doleret. Sidwell doesn't list an e -> o shift as a Mediaevalism, so my guess is that it is a typo or a mistranscription. I must admit I didn't notice the spelling oddity when I translated it.
  20. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Tibi dentes
    sunt candentes,
    pulcre sedent labia,
    que si quando
    ore tango
    mellea dant suavia.


    Your teeth
    are shining
    Your lips rest nicely
    And if at any time
    I touch your mouth
    They give honeyed kisses

    It is seeming somewhat unlikely that this is a religious poem ;) OTOH, I wonder if the beginning was deliberately misleading, as a sort of joking reference to the Marian imagery used at the time...

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