1. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    A small quibble Cinefactus; on que si quando, I suspect that first word is really quae--referring back to labia--and not "and".
  2. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Thanks Cato, I was wondering about that...
  3. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.

    For you, my dear,
    I'm glad to wear
    her shakles Cytherean;
    and Cupid's dart
    within my heart
    I bear without complainin'.

    As when the fire
    blazes higher
    when dry wood is laid on,
    goddess my mind
    for you, I find,
    is all burnt up and gone.

    Whose heart's so dure,
    whose soul's so pure,
    and free from any sin,
    that once he sees
    all your dowries
    he'll still be what he's been?

    Cato be praised
    who by God's grace
    lived rigid and uprightly--
    in love: e'en he
    by your flower'd be
    most warmly caught, and tightly.

    And oh, such hair
    Venus would wear;
    and she would sore regret her,
    most envious
    to see that yours
    than hers is so much better.

    Your throat and brow
    so smooth, I vow,
    send to all men a message:
    "Celestial
    not terrestial
    is this angelic visage".
  4. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    I note that ore is ablative, not accusative; I think that it is not the object but the means of the tango:


    pulcre sedent labia,
    qu(a)e si quando
    ore tango
    mellea dant suavia.


    Pretty sit (your) lips,
    which whenever
    I touch them with (my) mouth
    give (back) honeyed kisses

    (Suavium is an alternate spelling of sauvium).

    ****************************************************

    Que for quae is, I think, plausible as a medievalism. But we have at least two other suspected textual errors:

    1. Ur for Ut.
    2. Doloret for doleret.

    Which brings us back to the origin of this text. I have not been able to find it in the portion of the Carmina Burana available in the Corpus Scriptorum Latinorum. Can anyone identify this text more precisely?
  5. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Foolish me :oops: I thought that it must have been one of these verbs that take the ablative that I am always forgetting about ;)

    I did find one website, which listed it as a mediaeval poem not in the Carmina Burana... But unfortunately it did not state its provenance...
  6. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    and there was also e for et

    There are several possibilities in addition to these being medieavalisms. Apart from just being a typo, a t could have been mistaken for an r during transcription, although e & o are possibly less likely. One would have thought too that anyone interested in transcribing the manuscript would have realised that it must be 'ut' rather than 'ur'. Maybe they are just typos after all...
  7. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.

    For you, my dear,
    I'm glad to wear
    her shakles Cytherean;
    and Cupid's dart
    within my heart
    I bear without complainin'.

    As when the fire
    blazes higher
    when dry wood is laid on,
    goddess my mind
    for you, I find,
    is all burnt up and gone.

    Whose heart's so dure,
    whose soul's so pure,
    and free from any sin,
    that once he sees
    all your dowries
    he'll still be what he's been?

    Cato be praised
    who by God's grace
    lived rigid and uprightly--
    in love: e'en he
    by your flower'd be
    most warmly caught, and tightly.

    And oh, such hair
    Venus would wear;
    and she would sore regret her,
    most envious
    to see that yours
    than hers is so much better.

    Your throat and brow
    so smooth, I vow,
    send to all men a message:
    "Celestial
    not terrestial
    is this angelic visage".

    Your shining teeth
    are seen beneath
    your lips, that sit so neatly;
    lips which when I'm
    touching with mine
    kiss back, and do it sweetly.
  8. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Ooh. I don't at all like that last stanza on re-reading. Let's try:

    Your shining teeth
    are seen beneath
    your lips, that sit so neatly;
    lips that when I
    touch them with mine
    kiss back, and do it sweetly.
  9. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Lessee, what's next?

    Et tuarum
    pupillarum
    forma satis parvula
    non tumescit,
    sed albescit,
    nive magis candida.


    I don't get it. The crux is the meaning of pupillae here. Pupils of the eyes?

    And the form of your pupils is small enough;
    They don't get big, but they get bright,
    brighter than snow.

    Pupilla can also mean "girl". That makes even less sense.

    I guess one needs to read "eyes" by metonymy. Still, the association of mydriasis (and widening of the palpebral fissures) with sexual excitement was appreciated at least by late medieval times in Europe, and I expect much earlier.

    But our poet seems to be saying that there "Ain't nothin' in the world like a small-eyed girl..." So what gives? Am I missing something here?
  10. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Glad I am not the only one stymied by this... Do you think that it could be something like wards? I can't believe that it is the pupil of the eye, as these clearly don't whiten, and I imagined tumesco as more three dimensional bloating ;)

    Perhaps she is an older woman with children, and he is commenting that she hasn't lost her figure?

    And amongst your
    wards
    Your figure is slim enough
    it doesn't swell up
    but gets fairer
    whiter than the snow
  11. kmp Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    England
    Isn't pupillarum a misprint or medieval form of papillarum = breasts? I think he is complimenting her on her small-but-perfectly-formed snow-white breasts.
  12. Cinefactus Censor

    • Censor
    Location:
    litore aureo
    Of course. I think you have it KMP :)
  13. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    P-a-pillarum, and not p-u-pillarum? Good grief. :oops: I suppose that is the most likely thing; nice work, kmp.

    But why then are the verbs inceptive (tumescit rather than tumet, and albescit rather than albet)?

    Granted, the extra syllable is handy. But what sense does it make to say that her breasts (or areolae, or nipples) do not begin to swell, but that they begin to be white?

    I'm going to move on, in the hope that the rest of the piece will shed some light here.

    But Timotheus: the number of textual oddities here continues to expand:
    ur for ut, que for quae, e for et, doloret for doleret, and now probably papillarum for pupillarum. Can you please give us some specific citation as to the origin of this piece, so that we can at least have a shot at checking the text?

    Plurimas gratias tibi agimus: many thanks.
  14. cepasaccus Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I tried again the last three ones. Everything barely recognizable.

    ------------------------------------

    Nitent crura.
    Sed quid plura?
    deas pulchritudine
    et caelestes
    et terrestres
    superas et genere.

    The legs shine.
    But what so much?
    Godesses with beauty
    And divinities
    And earthly beings
    And beings higher with birth.

    I think the last four lines are a cry and hence accusativus.

    ------------------------------------

    Et idcirco,
    pia virgo,
    nulli sit mirabile,
    si mens mea
    pro te, dea,
    lesa sit a Venere.

    And therefore,
    faithful maid,
    to nobody it shall be wondrous,
    if my mind
    for you, godess,
    ???? by Venus

    I didn't find "lesa" or something similar.

    ------------------------------------

    Quare precor,
    mundi decor,
    te satis summopere,
    ut amoris,
    non doloris,
    causa sis hoc pectore.

    Why I beg,
    beautiful world,
    that you very much,
    of love,
    not pain,
    shall [reason] [this breast].

    amoris and doloris belong to satis (with summopere as "very much") and I think causa is ablativus, just as "hoch pectore", but I don't know the connection to the rest.

    bene dormite
  15. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I'm going to guess the accusative are the object of the verb superas (supero, -are - "surpass"), and the ablatives are abl. of respect, e.g. "you surpass goddesses in beauty..."
    Probably laesa sit - "may have been wounded". I also think Venere doesn't refer to the goddess specifically, but "love" in general.
    I'm going to guess that quare is more like "for which reason", te is the object of precor, and summopere = summo opere - "with the greatest effort" (mashed together for the sake of the rhythm). Satis is tricky, but (I think) in Medieval Latin this can function like the English word "quite" as in the phrase "quite a lot of effort".

    Amoris and doloris then go with causa (nominative) and hoc pectore is abl. of place (hoc = "this", i.e. "my"):

    "For which reason I beg you,
    adornment of the world,
    with quite a lot of effort,
    that of love
    not of pain
    you may be the cause in my heart.
  16. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Everyone seems to have skipped over the quodquod stanza. And it's not hard to see why.

    Quodquod manus,
    venter planus
    et statura gracilis
    te sic formant
    et cohornant
    quod nimis es habilis.


    Well. Let us ignore, for the time being, those first two words. Venter planus et statura gracilis are surely "a flat belly and a slender carriage" in the nominative.

    Presumably these nominatives constitute, at least in part, the subject of formant and cohornant?

    But what the heck is cohornant? Cohortor, like many deponents, has a non-deponent collateral. But it's cohorto, -are. No n in sight.

    (Hypothesis: Mens auctoris quidem laesa a Venere est. And it has seriously affected his spelling!)

    Again omitting the first two words, if the second verb is indeed cohortant:

    a flat belly and a slender carriage
    form you
    and urge ("advertise"?)
    that you are pleasant to handle.

    One would think quodquod to be neuter. But the word (assuming it's the same as quotquot) is sometimes used personally, as at the beginning of the Gospel of John. So it is not inconceivable that it might modify manus (the feminine of the Fourth). But there is also an obscure adjective, manus, -a, -um, which just means "good". Manus venter planus could be "good flat belly". But I don't think so.

    I'm going to quess wildly that quodquod is here used adverbially:

    In any case (your) hands,
    flat belly and slender carriage
    form you
    and announce
    that you are pleasant to handle...

    But this could easily be way off.
  17. Cato Consularis

    • Consularis
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Quodquod is tricky here; I wonder if this should be quidquid (these forms were confused even in the ancient world) and translated adverbially as something like "however much". I also think cohornant = co + ornant - "adorn in unison", the h added by the author to avoid having the dipthong oo (this is not a Latin dipthong, but might be confusing to someone who speaks a language that does use this dipthong).

    Thus, I translate:

    However much hands,
    a flat belly
    and a slender stature
    form you,
    they also adorn you
    so that you are truly nimble.

    I wonder if he is complimenting the girl for her graceful movement. Perhaps she is a dancer, something which would explain the emphasis on the three features mentioned.
  18. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Perhaps the two senses of habilis ("nimble" and "easy to handle") were both intended here.
  19. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    Quodquod manus,
    venter planus
    et statura gracilis
    te sic formant
    et cohornant
    quod nimis es habilis.


    Your hands, and that
    beautiful flat
    belly, and your gracile
    carriage, I find,
    do all combine
    to make you quick, and facile.
  20. Iynx Consularis

    • Consularis
    So far then:

    Pellucid star
    of girls you are,
    the flower and the dilly;
    in everything
    a rose in spring,
    and fairer than the lily.

    Your gorgeous form
    Me from my normal
    foursquare life has driven.
    Your face, I find,
    by smiles my mind
    to Venus' rule has given.

    For you, my dear,
    I'm glad to wear
    her shakles Cytherean;
    and Cupid's dart
    within my heart
    I bear without complainin'.

    As when the fire
    blazes higher
    when dry wood is laid on,
    goddess my mind
    for you, I find,
    is all burnt up and gone.

    Whose heart's so dure,
    whose soul's so pure,
    and free from any sin,
    that once he sees
    all your dowries
    he'll still be what he's been?

    Cato be praised
    who by God's grace
    lived rigid and uprightly--
    in love: e'en he
    by your flower'd be
    most warmly caught, and tightly.

    And oh, such hair
    Venus would wear;
    and she would sore regret her,
    most envious
    to see that yours
    than hers is so much better.

    Your throat and brow
    so smooth, I vow,
    send to all men a message:
    "Celestial
    not terrestial
    is this angelic visage".

    Your shining teeth
    are seen beneath
    your lips, that sit so neatly;
    lips which when I
    touch them with mine
    kiss back, and very sweetly.

    [pupillarum stanza]

    Your hands, and that
    beautiful flat
    belly, and your gracile
    carriage, I find,
    do all combine
    to make you quick, and facile.

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