Translation training — first sentences of Pro Sex. Roscio

By Pacifica, in 'Latin to English Translation', Jun 17, 2016.

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  1. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    But claiming that there's no distinction between, say, 'theft' and 'robbery' is hardly pedantry. Learned snobbishness leads one to do the opposite.

    Not at all, as I don't insist that others do so.
  2. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    I'm not sure I really understand your point. Claiming or insisting there is no distinction between the pairs of words I cited is quite clearly just as much an example of didacticism, if not downright dogmatism, as insisting there is a distinction. Perhaps you have a narrower view than I do of what pedantry can be.
  3. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    Describing the status quo observed by most native speakers is not didacticism, it's observation. Insisting that they make distinctions that they don't naturally is an example of didacticism.
  4. Aurifex Aedilis

    • Aedilis
    Location:
    England
    I took pains to establish the difference between merely not making a distinction in practice and insisting that there isn't one, and that it was only people in the second category I was saying there is an argument for calling pedants, not the first.

    Insisting that people make distinctions that they don't naturally make is indeed didacticism, but so is insisting that there is no distinction in words that other speakers do observe a distinction in. I'm not sure what is objectionable or even controversial about such a view.
  5. Imperfacundus Reprobatissimus

    • Civis Illustris
    You did. You're also ignoring the fact that 'describing the status quo...' was what I was doing, which is what I was trying to remind you of. Whence you divined 'insisting on there being no difference whatsoever' remains a mystery. Nevertheless, that still would not be pedantry in my opinion.

    Let's take the dictionary definition of 'pedant'
    It seems to me that someone pretentious, obsessed with minutiae, and with prescriptivist tendencies would be precisely the sort of person to insist on the distinction of, say, 'due to' from 'owing to. Why a person obsessed with splitting hairs would suddenly try to glue them together is beyond me.
  6. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Is it really worth a war, guys?

    Let everyone do just as they please. Anyway, Aurifex was honest with me: he told me he personally liked to make a distinction (and thereby taught me that some people actually did), but acknowldged many people didn't. As far as I'm concerned, I'll go on using "due to" as I've always done in any more or less informal writings of mine, but, knowing it's frowned upon by some, I might perhaps now think twice before using it in some other contexts.
    Callaina likes this.
  7. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm wondering, are there regional differences with the meaning of "rather"? Because I've checked definitions of it, and it doesn't look like my interpretation of it is wrong (see here "somewhat, to a certain extent, relatively or fairly"), but you seem to understand it as more like "very" or "quite" (and that definition is also there).
  8. Callaina Feles Curiosissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Canada
    I think either is valid and usage tends to depend on context, but I've probably heard/used it more with the latter meaning ("very"/"quite".)

    I suspect I'm also influenced by the fact that the Latin comparative tends to (or can, at least) translate as "rather".
  9. Hawkwood .

    • Civis

    Ah is this the famous defence of the lad accused of patricide? Where Cicero says: Quo Bono "who benefits." (from the man murdered). I only say because it has the feel of Holland's Rubicon to it, where he has a chapter on Cicero's make or break defence of a young lad.

    Or is this the same trial of the two lads in the latest Cicero translation.

    EDIT: Actually, I might have the translation wrong, unless "bono" has more than one meaning
  10. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Yes, Sextus Roscius, Cicero's client, is accused of parricide.

    And yes, he mentions cui bono in there (I didn't remember it, but I've checked now).
  11. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Are you picking sections or is this the whole trial/work that you're undertaking?
  12. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm translating the whole thing bit by bit.
  13. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    Back of the net! I'm going to swat-up with Holland's book tonight, just to get a feel for the climate again, then I'm going to pop my Ciceronian cherry with your translations.

    I'm assuming this is Cicero himself penning this after the fact or are these actual minutes of the trial? I wouldn't put it past the Roman's to record trials, though I'm guessing.
  14. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I believe Cicero wrote down his speeches and published them after the trials. I imagine that he stayed faithful up to a point to what he actually said during the trials, but he may have refined this bit or that.

    Now I guess it's also possible that he actually wrote some bits of them before, in order to prepare his speeches. But it's afterwards that he must have made his final versions for publication.
  15. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    Though, thinking about it, it doesn't seem impossible that there should also have been a slave of his present during the trials to take notes of what he said... I've never heard this was the case, but I don't know in fact, as it doesn't seem impossible.
  16. Hawkwood .

    • Civis
    In the introduction (page 15 to 24 so far) to "The Case for Prosecution in the Ciceronian Era" which I'm looking at online goes into a bit of detail about this, quite interesting.

    Also it wasn't Holland's book where I came across this trial; though it's briefly mentioned in it. Annoying because I distinctly know the story of this trial but I've no idea what it was I was reading and it's going back a good few years as well. Nevermind.

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