Mediaeval una bovata terre quam Galfridus filius Reginaldi et Alicia filia Dionis de eadem tenent de Abbate.

By DLPublic, in 'Latin to English Translation', Mar 24, 2019.

  1. DLPublic New Member

    My translation of is:

    "a bovate of land which Geoffrey son of Reginald and Alice daughter of Dion of the same hold of the abbot."

    My question is related to the context of the term 'de eadem'. Does this relate to the land, i.e. they both hold the same bovate, or does it mean that Dion was of the same, i.e. also a son of Reginald?

    Can anyone help to clarify this.
  2. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Eadem, being feminine, can't refer to Reginald, who is a man.

    I suppose it could refer to the land, but then it would more likely mean that Alicia or Dion was from that land. Your interpretation, while not theoretically impossible, seems pointlessly pleonastic. I'm not sure it does refer to the land, though.

    I'm thinking de eadem could perhaps be some medieval idiom meaning something like "jointly" or "in equal parts", but this is pure speculation from me as I've never seen that before.

    Could we see more of the text?
    Last edited by Pacifica, Mar 24, 2019
  3. DLPublic New Member

    Pacifica, many thanks for that. The full text is as follows:

    "Memorandum quod Ricardus de Gaddesby propositus dedit et cessit magistro et fratribus Milicie Templi Salomon duodecum denarios redditus in villa de Gaddesby, videlicit, de una bovata terre quam Galfridus filus Reginaldi et Alicia filia Dionis de eadem tenent de Abbate Leycestrie ex dono patris predicti Ricardi, reddendo inde annuatum ad Natale Beate Marie 6d. et ad Annunciacionem 6d. et pro hac autem donacione idem magister et fratres concesserunt eidem Ricardo et Alicia uxori ejus unum mesuagium cum furno et aliis pertinenciis ad terminum vite eorum, quod quidem mesuagium fuit Galfridi le Arblester de Leycestria reddendo inde annuatim per equales porciones ad terminos predictos, et quod idem Ricardus et Alicia sustentabunt dictum mesuagium cum furno in bono statu ac iste redditus fuit perquisitus tempore fratris Stephen de Todemershe et postea per cartam capituli heres predicti Ricardi tenet predictum messuagium."

    Which I have translated as:

    Note, Richard de Gaddesby who has proposed and passed to the master and brothers of the temple of Solomon [Knights Templars] twelve pence in rent from Gaddesby, namely, from one bovate of land which Geoffrey son of Reginald and Alice daughter of Dion hold (the same?) from the Abbot of Leicester of the gift of the father of the aforesaid Richard, by annual payment of six pence on 8th September and six pence on 25th March, and here instead [in lieu] of the donation [gift], the same master and brothers grant the aforesaid Richard and Alice, his wife, a messuage with an oven and its appurtenances during their lifetime, which indeed was the messuage thereupon rented by Geoffrey the bowmaker of Leicester by annual payment in equal portions at the terms aforesaid, and that the same Richard and Alice will maintain the said messuage with an oven in good state and that restoration by temple charter was sought at the time of Stephen de Todemershe and afterwards the aforesaid messuage falls to the aforesaid Richard and his heirs. [In effect Richard exchanges the bovate of land at Gaddesby for a messuage with an oven along with its appurtenances]

    Excluding the interpretation that Dion was a brother of Reginald, does help as I can now dimiss any thoughts that Alice and Richard de Gaddesby were cousins. One final point, from what I gather, 'Dionis' is plural ablative. Would this be used for a single parent? How should I interpret Dionis?
    many thanks Dave
  4. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    I'm still not sure about eadem.

    Propositus doesn't mean "who has proposed". It's basically a perfect passive (not active) participle but here I think it may be used as a noun. This dictionary gives the meaning "prior".

    Dionis is genitive singular (third declension).
  5. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    You presumably know the context better than I do, but doesn't iste redditus fuit perquisitus rather mean something along the lines of "this gift/transaction was effectuated"?
  6. DLPublic New Member

    I translated 'propositus' as per Lewis & Short dictionary as the perfect passive participle of 'propono' - set forth, declare, propose. Admittedly, probably should read more like "has been proposed" but that did not seem to make sense.
  7. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Yes, it's passive so can't possibly mean "having proposed". It would have to be "(having been) proposed".

    As I said above, I think it's being used as a noun here, though. The Lewis & Short dictionary has its limitations. It's great for pre-classical, classical and some early late Latin (so to speak) but it doesn't do medieval Latin. Many words are in common between classical and medieval Latin, of course, so L&S can help here, but I mean it will not have words and meanings that didn't arise until the medieval period or later.

    Do you know anything about this Richard of Gaddesby and if he was indeed a prior or some such thing?

    If not, maybe propositus could mean "aforementioned" but that would be a usage new to me.
  8. DLPublic New Member

    I am afraid my two years of Grammar school Latin was over fifty years ago, but recent research into medieval history has led me to try and re-learn some of those skills with the use of the likes of the TNA's tutorials and Wheelock's Latin coupled with dictionaries such as Wiktionary and Logeion, etc.

    As for 'ac iste redditus fuit perquisitus tempore fratris Stephen de Todemershe et postea per cartam capituli', I did struggle to translate this part by looking up each word individually and trying to assemble them in the correct order to make sence. Brother Todmerche was the master of the Knights Templars at Rothley. So would this be better translated as ... 'this transaction took place in the time of brother Stephen de Todmershe and afterwards [confirmed] by temple charter.' ?
  9. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    "this transaction took place in the time of brother Stephen de Todmershe" sounds likely enough.

    However, per cartam capituli goes with the next bit, heres predicti Ricardi tenet predictum messuagium.
  10. DLPublic New Member

    Richard de Gaddesby's father may have been a Templar, but as Richard is married (to Alice), it is unlikely he was. In the 'Custumary of the Manor and Soke of Rothley' (dated circa 1260, from which this was taken), he is one of the four jurors appointed in Gaddesby to provide the information for the custumal. Gaddesby was one of the many subordinate villages attached to the ancient royal manor of Rothley which was gifted to the Templars in 1231 by Henry III. Richard de Gaddesby (son of Gene/Gume) had at least two brothers who jointly held a virgate of land in Gaddesby from the Templars. It is almost certain his brother, Robert, goes on to become a prior.
  11. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Oops, yes. I had in mind that Alice's husband was Goeffrey because they're mentioned together at some point, but I mixed it all up. Alice is indeed called Richard's wife in the text.
  12. DLPublic New Member

    It is unlikely, the [later] charter would refer just to the heirs' rights. Surely, it would confirm the transaction to Richard AND his heirs.
  13. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    I don't know. The syntax strongly suggests per cartam refers to heres tenet.

    Your interpretation is possible, I guess, it you add a period after capituli, but it feels somewhat unlikely to have a sentence heres predicti Ricardi tenet predictum messuagium stuck at the end like that without any connective (like et, atque, autem...).
  14. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Only one heir (heres) is mentioned, by the way.
  15. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Re propositus, it crossed my mind it could be an error for praepositus, but I don't know.
  16. DLPublic New Member

    At the time of the customal, Richard and Alice only had one son, John. However I assumed (incorrectly), such grants usually catered for future (i.e. unborn) heirs, i.e. plural. FYI, the soke of Rothley adopted the custom of partible (rather than primogenitor) inheritance.

    Agreed. Have come across similar corruptions. However, that being 'set before', seems almost synonymous with 'proposed'.
  17. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    I meant praepositus as a title like "prefect" or so.
  18. DLPublic New Member

    Forgot to mention, Richard was a clerk (church warden?) evidenced by...

    Item Johannes filius Ricardi de Gaddesby, clerici, tenet unam curtilagnum et reddit per annum ij s. vj d. tribus termmis, ad Concepcionem Beate Marie ix d. ad festum Johannus Baptiste xij d. et Natale Beate Marie ix d. et ipse Johannes dedit domu de Rothleia dimidum acram terre pro predicto curtilagio et pro omnibus rebus ij s. xj d.

    which I believe means...
    Note John son of Richard de Gaddesby, clerk, holds a curtilage [an area of land attached to a house and forming one enclosure with it] and he pays 2s. 6d. in three terms at the conception of St. Mary [9th December] 9d. at feast of St. John the Baptist [24th June] 12d. and the nativity of St. Mary [8th September] 9d. and for the half acre of land of the said curtilage John has given to the house of Rothley for all these things 2s. 6d.

    The reason I think Richard was a clerk rather than a cleric is that both he and Henry (de Gaddesby, either the grandson or brother of Geoffrey, who BTW was termed Geoffrey decanus, the dean), confirmed the valuation of Gaddesby chapel thus...

    Gadesby. Ricardus filius Emme et Henricus filius Reginaldi dicunt super sacramentum suum quod capella de eadem valet … x markas

    Gaddesby: Richard son of Emme [Gene/Gume?] and Henry son of Reginald say under oath that the chapel of the same [i.e. Rothley] is worth … 10 marks.
    Last edited by DLPublic, Mar 24, 2019
  19. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    According to the same medieval Latin dictionary that I linked earlier, praepositus (which propositus may have been a mistake for) can mean "a layman who acts as a manager of the material concerns of a church or a monastery." Sounds a bit like a church warden, no?
    Rather: "John himself has given half an acre of land to the house of Rothley for the aforementioned curtilage and 2s. 6d for all things."
    That is interesting because it contains the same de eadem phrase that you were initially asking about. What do you mean by "[i.e. Rothley]"? Do you think de eadem [domu] is implied from some previous context that you haven't posted?

    I'm increasingly under the impression that this de eadem is some sort of fixed phrase. (In fact, it reminds me of a particular French phrase which I'm starting to think may have been calqued into medieval Latin, but I'm not sure of anything as I haven't seen enough examples.)
  20. Westcott Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I read de eadem as meaning de villa de Gaddesby.
    I think propositus should be prepositus (praepositus in classical Latin) and I would translate it as "reeve". To be sure of the translation you would need to know how the officers were referred to in that particular manor.
    I think there may be errors in the expansions of abbreviations in the original. I am sure that cessit should be concessit as the usual phrase is dedit et concessit, "gave and granted".
    I suspect that Dionis is short for Dionisii or Dionisie, Dennis or Denise.
    I would translate Et pro hac autem donacione as "And, moreover, for this gift ..."
    The furno could be a kiln as well as an oven.
    messuagium fuit Galfridi means the messuage was Geoffrey's.
    I translate ac iste redditus fuit perquisitus tempore fratris Stephen de Todemershe et postea per cartam capituli heres predicti Ricardi tenet predictum messuagium as "and this rent was purchased in the time of brother Stephen of Todemershe, and afterwards the heirs of the aforesaid Richard held (I suspect tenet should be tenuerunt) the aforesaid messuage by deed/charter of the chapter." The chapter is the governing body of the monastery in the same way that we have the Dean and Chapter of a cathedral.
    PS don't forget ae in classical Latin becomes e in medieval, hence my spelling of Dionisie.

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