Mediaeval una bovata terre quam Galfridus filius Reginaldi et Alicia filia Dionis de eadem tenent de Abbate.

By DLPublic, in 'Latin to English Translation', Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    No, since heres is singular. Unless of course there was a mistranscription in both words (so that it should have been heredes tenuerunt) but I don't know how likely that it. Probably not very.
  2. Westcott Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Caught me out again Pacifica! I still suspect that the tense should be perfect though, because it says preterea rather than iam or modo. (Late edit - I should have said postea not preterea but Pacifica has gracefully ignored this.)
    Last edited by Westcott, Mar 26, 2019
  3. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    The combination of postea with the present tense may be unusual, but it doesn't seem impossible either.

    In any case, "has been [verb]ing", if the action is still on-going at the moment of speaking/writing, usually translates to the present tense in Latin. So tenet means that the heir has been in possession of the messuage and still is at the time of writing, whereas tenuit would more likely mean that the heir was, at some point, in possession of the messuage but no longer is at the time of writing.
  4. DLPublic New Member

    Firstly, many thanks to both Pacifica and Westcott for your input. It has been most helpful and educational.
    I think I can put to bed, the term prepositus. As you both eluded to, it does mean 'reeve'. Elsewhere in the custumal it says...

    'In primus, ballivus domini regis continentur facit prepositum de quocunque voluerit tam de Rol' [Rothley] quam onmibus aliis ville [sic] soke, ...'

    ... which I think broadly states that the lord's bailiff is authorised to appoint whoever he chooses as reeve in all the villages of the soke. This is also supported in the section on valuations of the church and chapels of Rothley, which precede the entry for Gaddesby chapel. I have included the first two entries here to demonstrate the use of prepositus (reeve) and also to answer a previous question from Pacifica.

    'Rol [Rothley]. Stephanus Page, Stanhard de la More, Ricardus filius Nigelli et Ricardus Cotton, dicunt super sacramentum suum quod ecclesia de Rol' valet communibus annis xxvj markas.
    Kayham [Cayham]. Rogerus Thok de Kayham prepositus et Simon de Kayham dicunt super scaramentum suum quod capella de eadem valet ... x markas.'

    ... followed in similar fashion by the remaining attached village chapels including the Gaddesby entry posted earlier.
    Thus, my assumption the phrase capella de eadem means they are of the same Rothley [manor/soke].

    However, Rogerus Thok is the only one in the list termed prepositus! From the previous text for Gaddesby, the term is not used for Richard de Gaddesby, however, another reference (previously posted) terms him as clerici, assumed to be clerk/church warden as well (as it now appears) prepositus in the original post. It appears, reeve and clerk may be interchangeable!

    A further complication is that another Gaddesby resident, Walter son of Sweyn, was the village reeve (and also another of the four jurors) and in the custumal is listed as the largest landholder by far. I assume this was because he was responsible for the common land which was included in his entry of rents.

    Once again many thanks.
    Last edited by DLPublic, Mar 25, 2019
  5. DLPublic New Member

    After considering all the previous comments (most gratefully received), I have made the following changes to my original translation. BTW, I now think de eadem simply means 'at the same time', i.e. jointly, in this context.

    'Memorandum quod Ricardus de Gaddesby propositus dedit et [con]cessit magistro et fratribus Milicie Templi Salomon duodecum denarios redditus in villa de Gaddesby, videlicit, de una bovata terre quam Galfridus filus Reginaldi et Alicia filia Dionis de eadem tenent de Abbate Leycestrie...'

    Note, Richard de Gaddesby, reeve, gave and granted to the master and brothers of the temple of Solomon [i.e. Knights Templars] twelve pence in rent from Gaddesby, namely, from one bovate of land which Geoffrey son of Reginald and Alice daughter of Dion jointly hold from the Abbot of Leicester...

    '... statu ac iste redditus fuit perquisitus tempore fratris Stephen de Todemershe et postea per cartam capituli heres predicti Ricardi tenet predictum messuagium.'

    ... and this rent was set at the time of Stephen de Todemershe and afterwards by temple charter the aforesaid messuage falls to the heir of the aforesaid Richard.

    Comments welcome.
    Last edited by DLPublic, Mar 27, 2019
  6. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Those translations seem reasonable to me, but wait for Westcott, who I think is more accustomed to this text genre than I am.
  7. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Looking back to this, though:
    I think de eadem could mean de eadem (villa). That is, in this case, Kayham.

    See how capella de eadem in the Kayham entry seems to mirror ecclesia de Rol' in the Rothley entry. While in the Rothley entry, the writer used the entire name of the place Rothley, in the second entry, they may have chosen to use a pronoun instead of the noun Kayham.

    If I'm right here, the de eadem in Memorandum quod Ricardus de Gaddesby propositus dedit et [con]cessit magistro et fratribus Milicie Templi Salomon duodecum denarios redditus in villa de Gaddesby, videlicit, de una bovata terre quam Galfridus filus Reginaldi et Alicia filia Dionis de eadem tenent de Abbate Leycestrie... could mean de villa de Gaddesby.
  8. DLPublic New Member

    Perhaps the opening paragraph immediately preceding the Rothey entry of church/chapels valuations, which interestingly uses a variant of eadem (i.e. eandem), may shed further light on the debate...

    'Extenta facta per Inquisitionem tempore fratus Amed de Morestall tunc magistri Milicium Templi in Anglia de valore ecclesie de Rol' et capellarum ad eandem spectantium preter vicariam assignatam et confirmatam per episcopum et capitulum Lincolnensis.'

    BTW - words enclosed in square brackets in original transcripts are my additions!
  9. Westcott Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I think if the writer meant "jointly" he'd have said conjunctim. De eadem only means one thing to me, "of the same". Is there any chance of displaying the document as you did with the Foot of Fine in the Maud/Matilda/Walter thread? It's just that the de eadem is rather a long way from the mention of Gaddesby. I'm wondering whether it says Galfridus filius Reginaldi "of such-a-place", and then Alicia filia Dionis' would be of the same place.

    Regarding the second sentence, I don't know how the Templars were organised, but I don't think you can translate capituli as "temple".

    In my post above I translated perquisitus as "purchased" without even thinking, but I see you have translated it as "set". I therefore went back to my dictionaries. The classical Latin one (Cassell's) says perquiro, to inquire earnestly, make accurate inquiries, search for eagerly. This doesn't fit the context at all. However the medieval Latin one (Latham's) has a much longer entry, under perquisitio. The noun means a request, instance, purchase, acquisition, thing acquired. It then moves on to the verb, and mentions purchase, acquire. It just goes to show that classical and medieval Latin are almost two different languages.
  10. DLPublic New Member

    Unfortunately the original manuscript (actually it was an early copy of the original manuscript) found in the Rothley preceptory archives was not published. The text/transcript comes from a presentation by G.T. Clark (who discovered the manuscript) to the Archaeological Society back in 1881 (Archaeologica, vol.47). Unfortunately, the text no longer exists online (although the rest of the volume is!). I had to purchased a book containing a facsimilie of the original report.

    When Henry III gifted the ancient royal manor of Rothley to the Templars in 1231, they soon bulit a preceptory just outside the village proper. The preceptory (often termed a Temple), lorded over by a resident master, provides accommodation and administration for the templar brothers, i.e. the caput honoris. Attached to Rothley Temple is a chapel which is separate from the village church used by the village community. The templars' demesne land was not only in Rothley, but spread across many villages in Leicestershire, including Gaddesby where I was born.

    Thus, I believe, the term cartam capituli refers to a charter made at the (court) of the preceptory or temple.

    I originally, translated perquisitus as 'sought', hence sought by temple charter. Being new to this, I read somewhere that Latin was a poetic and flowery language and often the true meaning had to be gleaned from the prose. Maybe this is true more for classical rather than medieval Latin. My use of the word 'set' was used as it seemed to me more appropriate that the 'rent' was set (or agreed) rather than purchased or acquired. You do not really purchase or acquire a 'rent'!

    However, if 'redditus' can also be interpreted as 'tenancy' or similar, then 'acquired' would appear to be the most appropriate translation here.
  11. Westcott Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    I beg to differ, rents were regularly bought and sold. There were no bank accounts in those days. If you wanted income you could buy land or the rent from it, and vice versa if you wanted to raise cash. If you come across somebody described as firmarius, "farmer", it means he has paid a lump sum to the landowner for the right to receive the rents. The landlord would probably be prepared to allow a discount in return for guaranteed funds and an easy life. If a man was a farmer in the sense of tilling the soil he would probably be described as yeoman or husbandman, and these words were left in English even in Latin documents. The word agricola is rare.
    Cinefactus and Pacifica like this.

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