"You cannot all be the King of England" into Medieval Latin

By Abcormal, in 'English to Latin Translation', Oct 11, 2019.

  1. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    It makes sense to elide 'de' because it was elided in classical Latin already.
  2. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
  3. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena

    The same elision rules that apply for the scansion of poetry also apply for scanning prose.
  4. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I thought that was a matter of some controversy.
  5. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    I haven't heard of any controversy in that regard. Where did you read that?
  6. Pacifica grammaticissima

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Belgium
    I don't exactly remember. Just in some forum conversations, I think.
  7. Abcormal New Member

    Last edited by Abcormal, Oct 16, 2019
  8. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena

    Hmm ... ok ... the wiki article on Cicero's clausulae takes elisions for granted ... it also elides de in one example there ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clausula_(rhetoric)
  9. Abcormal New Member

    Which are? Please elaborate.
  10. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    Well, to put it in a simple formula:

    if vowel 1 (+m) meets (h+) vowel 2, vowel 1 gets elided.

    e.g. frustra esse = frustr'esse
    vocem audire = voc'audire
    tecta habere = tect'(h)abere
    monstrum horret = monstr'(h)orret

    es and est are exceptions. There, the e gets elided:

    bos formosa est = bos fromosa'st
    templum es = templum's
    Abcormal likes this.
  11. Ser 鳥王

    • Civis Illustris
    Oh! The Song of Roland's ambdui vus en taisez. Yes, that would be a better choice.

    I am surprised I didn't know about all these unelided de prepositions. The more you know. :)
    Abcormal likes this.
  12. Abcormal New Member

    :) I know, right? I'll use "de Engleterre", it seems more "authentic" that way, if you will. Oh, and the "Leis de Willelme" was actually written in the 12th century, sorry for the typo ^^;
  13. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
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    Bohemia
    Sorry for getting back to this so late, but I suppose I won't confuse the OP by this at least.
    So, in a word to word translation, you're, of course, absolutely correct that it translates this and that way, but I would argue that from the point of phraseology/lexicology the Latin strongly preferred the phrase "King of [People-of-the-nation_gen-pl]" where modern languages say "King of [Country]". From that point, it would be more correct to translate "King of [Country]" or "King of [Country_adjective]" as "King of [People-of-the-nation_gen-pl]". Of the top of my head: Persārum Rēx and Rēx Persārum - very frequent (more than few examples), while all other mutations (Rex Persiae, Rex Persicus are virtually if not absolutely non-exstant...)

    So, just as a lexicological note...
  14. Bitmap Civis Illustris

    • Civis Illustris
    Location:
    Cygnea, Gena
    I know that the Ancients thought more in terms of peoples and had less of a concept of nations and national borders.

    I'd say it's a different matter when translating modern concepts, though. Abcormal has already said that the attested term for that time was rex Anglorum (which also made sense), so there seems to be no debate.
    I would be a bit more reluctant to chose the name of the people rather than the country when it comes to more modern emperors ... for example, I wouldn't call the last German emperor 'emperor of the Germans', and I wouldn't call the last Austrian emperor 'emperor of the Austrians' ... I would call the Belgian king 'king of the Belgians', though ... mainly because that's his title :p
    Godmy likes this.
  15. Godmy A Monkey

    • Civis Illustris
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    Bohemia
    I see, well those are interesting questions ;) Maybe we should research how those mentioned were really titled in their age :) (let's say 18th century)

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