Oxford Language Course

[russja01]

I recently purchased the Oxford Language Course for Latin to work through on my own and at the beginning it gives a very clear definition of how to pronounce consonants and vowels. My question is that the directions it gives for pronunciation contradict my knowledge about pronunciation enough to bring it here. I have sung in Latin enough that I felt fairly comfortable being able to pronounce it while reading but not so much now.

I have attached pictures of what I'm looking at, let me know what you think!

 

[Aurifex]

My question is that the directions it gives for pronunciation contradict my knowledge about pronunciation enough to bring it here.

I think you better tell us what it is specifically about these pages that contradicts your knowledge.

 

[russja01]

Partially the "a" without accent as in the word cup in words like Scintillam and not a long "a", then the clause that the letter "c" is always hard and never soft, contradicts what I've heard in "Pater noster, qui es in caelis", or as a "ch" sound in Sanctificetur. The "u" without an accent in "nomen tuum", instead of "toom". It just seems very restricting compared to the context that I've heard it in.

 

[cinefactus]

The Oxford course is giving you the restored classical pronunciation. It sounds like you are used to the ecclesiastical pronunciation.

 

[Pacifica]

I'm confused by short "a" supposed to sound like the "u" in "cup". I know those indications are always approximative, but the sound in "cup" doesn't sound like an "a" at all to me. Or at best, there's a very slight resemblance... Something between "e" and "a" maybe, but on the whole a rather vague and hybrid sound. The sound in "cap" actually sounds much closer to a true "a" to me.

 

[russja01]

Is there one form that people usually subscribe to learning then? If you're right Cinefactus then I seem to prefer the ecclesiastical pronunciation over the restored classical pronunciation. Also, could anyone then refer me to a good outline of the ecclesiastical pronunciations for the language similar to the one I posted?

 

[Aurifex]

I'm confused by short "a" supposed to sound like the "u" in "cup". I know those indications are always approximative, but the sound in "cup" doesn't sound like an "a" at all to me.

Nor to me, but then I don't speak the so-called Received Pronunciation, which the authors of this Latin book clearly do.

Is there one form that people usually subscribe to learning then?

Speaking only for English schools, the Classical curriculum taught there means that the Restored Pronunciation, or an approximation of it, is what is used in nearly every classroom. The handful of Latin teachers in the small number of Catholic public schools that still exist may favour Ecclesiastical Pronunciation, though since they too will be teaching a Classical curriculum I suspect it's not officially encouraged.

 

[russja01]

Would it be not officially encouraged then because it is related or oriented to the church? And it is easier to have a religious-neutral language curriculum than one which is primarily used by Catholicism? Does that make sense? Or is the Classical curriculum more proper?

 

[Ater Gladius]

Would it be not officially encouraged then because it is related or oriented to the church? And it is easier to have a religious-neutral language curriculum than one which is primarily used by Catholicism? Does that make sense? Or is the Classical curriculum more proper?

Classical Latin is somewhat different in style from medieval Latin. When people in the 20th century try to revive Latin education, they want to get rid of all possible medieval influence, keeping only the pure Latin. Hence the restored pronunciation is proposed.

I think it is a matter of personal taste when it comes to pronunciation; perhaps since Plautus's time, Latin-speaking people are already divided into differing accents. So there is not really a standard way to speak Latin.

Is there one form that people usually subscribe to learning then? If you're right Cinefactus then I seem to prefer the ecclesiastical pronunciation over the restored classical pronunciation. Also, could anyone then refer me to a good outline of the ecclesiastical pronunciations for the language similar to the one I posted?

It is an oversimplification, but ecclesiastical pronunciation is just Italian pronunciation. Some suggests that -ti-, when following a vowel, as in patientia, should be pronounced like the Italian -z-. (This is etymologically justifiable since patientia in Latin is just pazienza in Italian.) At least for the choirs, this prescription is ignored since -ti- is a standalone syllable. But everything else is just like Italian.

I'm confused by short "a" supposed to sound like the "u" in "cup". I know those indications are always approximative, but the sound in "cup" doesn't sound like an "a" at all to me. Or at best, there's a very slight resemblance... Something between "e" and "a" maybe, but on the whole a rather vague and hybrid sound. The sound in "cap" actually sounds much closer to a true "a" to me.

Since your mother tongue is French, I'll be guessing that you don't pronounce Latin short and long "a" with your tongue retracted. And that will mean the "a" is closer to the English short "a" as in "cat", for you.

Nor to me, but then I don't speak the so-called Received Pronunciation, which the authors of this Latin book clearly do.

Few people speak RP, except scholastic foreign learners who can control their tongues like their hands, and some BBC reporters. RP is more like a linguistic abstraction than an existing accent.

And actually, does any of you known IPA?

 

[Aurifex]

Few people speak RP, except scholastic foreign learners who can control their tongues like their hands, and some BBC reporters. RP is more like a linguistic abstraction than an existing accent.

That's not really true, Ater. There are many people who speak RP or thereabouts, and many who pronounce the "u" in "cup" as an "a" sound. Listen to Radio 4 regularly and you will find this to be the case.

 

[Abbatiſſæ Scriptor]

and many who pronounce the "u" in "cup" as an "a" sound.

Indeed, but it is ſtill a very poor choice of example.
'Reſtored' pronunciation is ſuſpiciously accommodating to Engliſh in its willingness to convert the primarily durational diſtinction between long and ſhort vowels into a more acouſtic diſtinction between tenſe and lax vowels. I am much more comfortable with Eccleſiaſtical Pronunciation.