Gah, the "alveolar trill" is driving me mad

[Nikolaos]

I cant think of a way around the need for the alveolar trill in place of the doubled "r" in such words as "terra", but being a native speaker of that beautiful language we call "English", I can't quite wrap my tongue around it yet.

I can perform an alveolar flap (I didn't check to see if that is the correct terminology) just fine, so I know where the sound is formed. The sound I currently use for the Latin "r" is some sort of retroflex/reverse alveolar flap hybrid (that is, the back of the tongue is somewhat in the English "r" position, while the tip flaps upward against the alveolar ridge), which I doubt is correct.

The thing that really irks me is that my dad and my younger brother can pronounce the sound effortlessly, and never had to "learn" it. My dad's Spanish teacher, who was a native speaker of the language, couldn't trill her Rs and had him perform the sound for the class. My brother has no intention to learn any foreign language, so the ability is wasted on him x_x

This is more of a rant against myself than anything. I don't really expect anyone to teach me how to do it, but I wouldn't object to your trying

 

[Iohannes Aurum]

Re: Gah, the

I also have the same problem with the same trill, but can do the flap. I can do the French "r" instead.

 

[Nikolaos]

I also have the same problem with the same trill, but can do the flap. I can do the French "r" instead.

I suppose that is one way - isn't that a trill produced at the back of the mouth? I can almost do that, and I think that I could do it well with very little practice.

I suppose it isn't as important for Latin - we don't know that the R was an alveolar trill - but I also plan to learn Spanish at some point.

 

[EricDi]

Re: Gah, the

How do we know that the trillers got it right? Put against all the other sounds - this trill seems the most unnatural of all. Might as well throw in a tweet or a click. The science of language has intrigued me, but never enough to investigate it - too esoteric too fast. I thought this trilled r was an ability only attained at birth. So, if us non-trillers were born into Rome, would we have an impediment? So many of us. I just can't imagine it; like developing a handwriting only for the righties. Guess I'll not bother learning Spanish after all.

 

[Quasus]

Re: Gah, the

Put against all the other sounds - this trill seems the most unnatural of all. Might as well throw in a tweet or a click.

lol

I thought this trilled r was an ability only attained at birth.

It takes a few years for Russian children to master this sound. Nearly everyone succeeds.

 

[EricDi]

Re: Gah, the

Yet another failing for which my only excuse is incompetence.

It takes a few years for Russian children to master this sound. Nearly everyone succeeds.

I suppose the kh(X) is easier, huh - just feed them something they don't like. (I'd probably just choke.)

 

[Quasus]

Re: Gah, the

Yet another failing for which my only excuse is incompetence.

Don’t take it so seriously!

I suppose the kh(X) is easier, huh - just feed them something they don't like.

Oh no, it’s a matter of transliteration. The sound itself is typically explained as ch in German ach or Scotch Loch, nothing really challenging. Unlike in Arabic… :shock:

 

[Quasus]

Re: Gah, the

Back to the topic: I could try to find some logopedic instructions, but do you think they’ll help?

 

[EricDi]

Re: Gah, the

I could try to find some logopedic instructions, but do you think they’ll help?

Maybe for Nikolaos et. al.; I remain proudly alveolar r challenged. (All in good fun. Thanks.)

 

[Nikolaos]

Re: Gah, the

Update:

I can now produce an alveolar trill. Yes, I am quite happy that after years of trying I have finally accomplished it.

Currently, I cannot trill quietly (as in a whisper), and I cannot join the trill with other sounds (i.e., in a word). The voiced trill needs some work, as it doesn't sound very r-like, but yesterday I couldn't voice it at all so I am happy with my progress.

To others hoping to learn this - I don't trill with the very tip of my tongue, but rather the couple of centimeters behind it. The tip, along with those couple of centimeters (or slightly more/less, I am bad at estimates) are lightly pressed against the roof of my mouth, and it is easiest when the tip of my tongue is touching my teeth (again, that isn't the trilling part).

The trill feels rather like blowing a raspberry in my mouth.

I don't expect my instructions to help anyone - most people's instructions didn't help me - but I can hope.

 

[Decimvs]

Re: Gah, the

Congrats on your progress!

I am sort of half way there; I can trill my Rs, but only when they follow certain other phonemes. For instance, if I want to trill the R in the word scriptor, no problem. But, words like terra are more difficult for me. This seems like it obviously just has to do with some sounds leaving my tongue and mouth in a shape that is more conducive to trilling, and some requiring more skill in transition.

 

[Iohannes Aurum]

Re: Gah, the "alveolar trill" is driving me mad

I can finally do the alveolar trill, though I can do it half the time. I pressed the top of my tongue lightly on the back of the upper incisors by the gumline and I vibrated the throat moderately.

 

[Quintilianus]

Being unable to pronounce it too I'm reviving this thread.
Are there many people here mastering this song that is driving me mad ? Those of you who weren't able to trill when you posted here, can you do it now ?
This video seems to be the best out there, and I hope this will finally work out for me, so I thought I'd share it with you if it can help some people here :

Two important points I find : the "f" stream of air (and not a "sh") and the tongue not curled-up.

If, diis iuvantibus, I'm able to do it one day I think I'll use it constantly even in French (it's so much more beautiful than the standard French R)

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I never had any problem with the alveolar trill: my great-aunt was a telephone operator. What I can't do is a proper north German guttural R, and I think that's what most gives me away, so after many years of trying I just use the trill, at least when I remember. I don't have that option in French, but then I imagine it's the most minor of my sins against that language.

 

[Imperfacundus]

Lucky me, Georgian has both an alveolar trill in რ = r and a not-quite-Franco/German-r-but-pretty-similar ღ = *ghh

 

[Quintilianus]

It's so frustrating.
Already 4 months I'm trying to produce it.
I think I'll just turn mad in the end.

 

[Quintilianus]

Still can't do it, but I've got a question for those of you who can do it and especially if you can also do a guttural R.
Is there alongside the alveolar trill a little guttural vibration ? Because if I try to force a little the air flow, I come back on some guttural R (kind of a german "ch" or hard french r, I don't really know), and it seems I can make the tongue vibrate with this and could improve it, whereas I can only do a little trill (I'm not even sure it really sounds as one) without vibrating the throat and it doesn't even last one second.
Thank you.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Not with me. I tried to do it that way and nearly choked.

 

[Iohannes Aurum]

I can do the guttural R. If one can gargle, then one can do the guttural R.

 

[Imperfacundus]

Still can't do it, but I've got a question for those of you who can do it and especially if you can also do a guttural R.
Is there alongside the alveolar trill a little guttural vibration ? Because if I try to force a little the air flow, I come back on some guttural R (kind of a german "ch" or hard french r, I don't really know), and it seems I can make the tongue vibrate with this and could improve it, whereas I can only do a little trill (I'm not even sure it really sounds as one) without vibrating the throat and it doesn't even last one second.
Thank you.

To me they're completely different. I don't feel guttural vibration while doing an alveolar trill.
Well, assuming I'm doing them right. https://clyp.it/zu5ogjqy