Pronunciation Issues With Hymnus Europae

[R. Seltza]

Hello Everyone,​

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I was wondering about some issues with the Latin version of the European Union's Anthem. ​

Here's the song:​

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I also have some questions about the grammar of certain sections in the song, but seeing as there are different sections for Latin Grammar Questions & Pronunciation, I'll make 2 separate posts & post the Grammar thread over in the Latin Grammar Questions Section.​

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Anyways, my questions are as follows:​

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(1.) Europa sounds like it was pronounced [AH-EE-ro-pa]/[AH-YU-ro-pa]. Isn't Eu- supposed to be pronounced ["Yu" or "Iyu"]? ​

(2.) They pronounced Pacem like [PAH-SEM] instead of the classical [PAH-KEM] or Ecclesiastical [PAH-CHEM]. Is this a part of a different pronunciation system?

(3.) Cives has the same issue as Pacem, as it was pronounced like [SEE-VEHZ] instead of the classical [KEE-VEHZ] or Ecclesiastical [CHEE-VEHZ] (they even have the background tenors dragging out the [SEE-] sound). Is this also a part of a different pronunciation system?

(4.) They pronounced words with the letter V with the actual "V" sound instead of the "W" sound (like Di[VER]sitate & Ci[VES]. Is whatever pronunciation system they're using a more modern version or something?

(5.) Words with -ae are pronounced [AY] (Like in Way) instead of being pronounced [AI] (like the sound of the letter "I"). In the sentence "Stellae Signa Sunt in Caelo Aureae, Quae Iungant Nos", "Caelois pronounced [CH(AY)-LO], like the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, but there are other places in the song where it doesn't seem to be following an Ecclesiastical pronunciation system. What's going on here?


Thanks For The Help in Advance!

 

[Dantius]

The pronunciation does seem weird here.

 

[R. Seltza]

I'm surprised that they would make this the official Latin Version of their anthem when it has a number of punctuation issues...

 

[Pacifica]

What you hear as /s/ actually sounds like /ts/ to me, which is not unusual in ecclesiastical pronunciation (or at least some sorts thereof; I believe it's like that in the version that is/was used in Czech-speaking countries, right, Godmy ?). Only perhaps in cives does it sound a bit like just /s/. Overall it sounds like relatively "normal" ecclesiastical pronunciation to me. Definitely not classical, but much like what I've heard in many Latin songs.

 

[Glabrigausapes]

Isn't Eu- supposed to be pronounced ["Yu" or "Iyu"]?

More or less, yes, but they're definitely borrowing from German. I'm hearing /ɔɪ/, as in German 'Freund'.

in the version that is/was used in Czech-speaking countries, right, Godmy

Yeah, that's a pan-Slavic phenomenon. The old 'aktsent'.

Edit: The rest, as Pax hath y-said, is pretty normal, although the inconsistency with diphthong ae is a little baffling.

 

[Pacifica]

More or less, yes, but they're definitely borrowing from German.

I thought that in Latin (as opposed to English, where it does sound something like "you") it was more along the lines of /ɛʊ/. Not sure those are the exact phonetic characters to use here, but anyway, I think it's a diphthong involving some "e" (as in Latin) sound and some "u" sound.

Edit: Wait, perhaps that's just what he was trying to approximate with "iyu". It wasn't immediately obvious to me, but now that I think about it, I guess it's close-ish. As for "yu", I was reading it with a consonantal "y", thus sounding like "you", but I guess he meant a vocalic "y".

 

[Glabrigausapes]

I thought that in Latin (as opposed to English, where it does sound something like "you") it was more along the lines of /ɛʊ/.

It certainly was, at least among the learned. But as to how it developed in popular speech, I'm guessing it would have followed a native utterance like 'eum', and don't modern Ecclesiasts tend to pronounce that word /e-ju:m/?

 

[Pacifica]

I've never noticed or paid attention to modern ecclesiasts' pronunciation of eum (I haven't listened to that much ecclesiastical Latin, after all, except for a couple of favorite songs) but I guess a /j/ sound can sneak in between the e and u spontaneously enough. As for possible popular variants of the eu in Europa, although I don't know, I guess your hypothesis is possible.

 

[Glabrigausapes]

they're definitely borrowing from German. I'm hearing /ɔɪ/, as in German 'Freund'.

I said this without realizing/remembering that the lyrics begin with the German word 'Freude', which, I think, serves to corroborate.

 

[Godmy]

Thanks for tagging. The pronunciation is pretty much correct, but it's the central European [traditional] pronunciation (not the restored one) in the German mutation (= heard in "r" and "eu" pronounced "oy" in "boy"; in Czech we pronounce both "r" and "eu" as one would in restituta and we always have)

Otherwise make sure guys, to learn about also the rest of the giant international pronunciation models Typically it's:

1) Italian Ecclesiastic
2) Central European/medieval (= pretty much the rest of the Europe but Italy, being in stranger mutations in France & Spain and once upon a time in a strange mutation in England too, though I'm not sure England hadn't took some elements from the Ecclesiastic too later on; of course before England switched to restituta as partially also the other European countries have already)
3) restituta

 

[lex dura]

This Latin version has not been officially recognized, probably to avoid the EU from being portrayed as elitist and detached from the ordinary citizen, even though Latin has the merit of being a truly European language without being the official language of a Member State.

The author sent a copy to Herman van Rompuy, at the time president of the European Council, and received a friendly reply (in Latin, see https://www.hymnus-europae.at/presse/ ).

Note that some of the institutions of the EU actually use Latin names, though; the Court of Justice has "curia" on its letterhead and website, and the Council's building in Brussels has a name plate "Consilium".

 

[Pacifica]

The author sent a copy to Herman van Rompuy, at the time president of the European Council, and received a friendly reply (in Latin, see https://www.hymnus-europae.at/presse/ ).

Interesting! I wonder if he wrote it himself or hired a translator. I lean towards the latter hypothesis, but how could I know.

 

[Godmy]

Herman van Rompuy just rose in my eyes by several grades Even if he asked a classical department to do it (both translation of the original letter from Latin and the response), since I remember the times when our department would get translation requests all the time... (mostly for the diplomas honōris causā given to various personalities visiting the city).

 

[Godmy]

to avoid the EU from being portrayed as elitist and detached from the ordinary citizen,

On the other hand, it is sad that presuming knowledge of Latin from modern Europeans is being seen as elitist, detached from the ordinary citizen. Haven't we become a little bit condescending and patronizing? Don't get me wrong, I know the sad state of Latin education in the Western World, but the moment we start to adapt "protective" ... paternalizing/patronizing policy like this even for official versions of a song, I think we're in trouble. It's still an undeniable truth that almost 1000 years of literature of every nation in the former European catholic empire wasn't written in the national languages but in Latin and the educated citizens still should be able to access their roots and be motivated to learn to do that, not treated as children so someone is not seen as elitist...

well, whatever, sorry for the rant

 

[Pacifica]

According to Wikipedia, Herman Van Rompuy

attended Sint-Jan Berchmanscollege in Brussels (until 1965), where Ancient Greek and Latin were his main subjects.

So perhaps, just perhaps, he has retained some of it. That isn't necessarily the case, though.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On the other hand, it is sad that presuming knowledge of Latin from modern Europeans is being seen as elitist, detached from the ordinary citizen. Haven't we become a little bit condescending and patronizing? Don't get me wrong, I know the sad state of Latin education in the Western World, but the moment we start to adapt "protective" ... paternalizing/patronizing policy like this even for official versions of a song, I think we're in trouble. It's still an undeniable truth that almost 1000 years of literature of every nation in the former European catholic empire wasn't written in the national languages but in Latin and the educated citizens still should be able to access their roots and be motivated to learn to do that, not treated as children so someone is not seen as elitist...

well, whatever, sorry for the rant

I don't mind ranting, but I find it hard to tell what you're actually supporting and opposing, so am unsure whether to join in or not.

 

[Pacifica]

Better not join in, as this is verging dangerously on the political.

 

[Godmy]

Better not join in, as this is verging dangerously on the political.

Not at all!

I don't mind ranting, but I find it hard to tell what you're actually supporting and opposing, so am unsure whether to join in or not.

What I meant was that I find it wrong that somebody in the EU bureau sees a Latin version of the European anthem as elitist and detached from the ordinary citizen, trying to "protect" the citizens from too much Latin. That I find wrong...

I don't even get how I could be misunderstood, but I suppose that can happen

 

[Godmy]

I mean, can't we all agree on that? xD

 

[Bitmap]

Funny ... a few months ago after Whitsun I helped in some kind of European project in Oldcastle that involved exchange students from other European countries (like Spain or Netherlands) ... when they played the European anthem (I think with some English translation of FSG attached to it), it really made me wonder why no one's actually thought of making a Latin version of it. I decided to google it and actually found the same inofficial proposition that you presented here. Apparently it was written by someone from Austria where Latin is still held in very high regard.

It has only now occured to me that I could search this forum for some ideas on that anthem, and I'm glad to have found this thread.

As for the pronunciation: It has been well observed by Godmy already that the way they pronounce the words there is simply what I would call "School German Latin" (yes, in that order) or "German-butchered Latin" -- hence the uvular r, the pronunciation of "Eu" in Europa and some other things that have not been mentioned:

- the first a in maneat should be short
- the e in regat should be short
- the i in fides should be short
- the o in vocat is short
- the o in opus should be short ... this really triggers me -- some day I might land behind bars for assaulting someone because of his or her butchering of that word

Anyway, I still think it's a pretty good effort after all and I like the fact that they got all the stresses right. It's the first time I've actually heard the song (rather than just reading its lyrics) and I quite like it. I'm just saying that it has been slightly maltreated by the wooden mallet of Germanness (or Austrianness for that matter)

As for "eum" - that word is not comparable to "Europa". While "Eu" is a diphthong in Europa, in e-um, e and u are pronunounced separately and the word consists of 2 syllables. Hence the /j/ ecclesiastical Latin insert -- which might actually be pretty close to the original pronunciation ... at least it's better than the glottal stop German-butchered Latin would throw in.