14th century document (Vie de St. Denis)

Hroswitha

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Yes, I had been reading Patibulo as cross and, in context, cruciatus would make sense. The torture of the cross.

Thank you for the reference from the Gesta Francorum. The author of this text, Yves de Saint-Denis, was likely very well versed in the passion literature of the centuries preceding his work. I know he used the Gloriosae as a source, and there was a 13th century version of the saint's life composed in Paris that would have been source material. Much of this text was likely based closely on older sources, which would explain some of the standardized references to the cardinal virtues etc.

This looks awfully close to the sentence in question. The sentence is extremely long, but it runs as such:

Est autem sermo veracissimus ex scriptis eius fidelissimis posteritati traditus animoque quam plurimum recolendus qualiter (possibly quali) iste magnus Dyonisius circa salutaris dominice passionis tempus cum Apolophanio conphilosopho in urbe degens Heliopolis quando scilicet deus et homo dominus noster Jesus Christe (Christus?) pro mundi salute invidia videorum (cruciatus? crucius?) patibulo pependit affixus, et sol siu domini mortem panescens et quali non ferens suum et universitatis opificem ad tempus carne occumbentem, mortisque pro nobis gustantem poculum, dei medio lucis sue radios occultans in terre noctis mutavit horrorem, atque orbis climata tenebrarum texit Caligine, lunaque tunc plena creatori suo compatiens a setemptrionis partibus per (pro?) orientem ad solem usque pervenit, pendentique Christo per nobis in cruce serivns, inter solem et impios se opposuit, ne impii ipsius solis claritate valerent perfrui, qui veram omnium lucem Christum extinguere conabantur.

In general, I know what it says. Most of this translation doesn't have to be in beautiful English, as no one will work with my notes but me and this material is only intended as the source for my dissertation. Parts of the sentence are beautifully clear, though I still don't know the antecedent to "quam". Incidentally, this is the first sentence of a section of the text -- a chapter, if you will -- and I don't see the likelihood of the quam referencing something that came before the chapter heading.

I will continue to wrestle with my sentences. Once I get a sense of how this guy's style works and how to untangle his grammatical skein, I'll be ready to tackle the section where the author summarizes the Celestial Hierarchy. Ugh.
 

Cato

Consularis

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Location:
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Hroswitha dixit:
Parts of the sentence are beautifully clear, though I still don't know the antecedent to "quam". Incidentally, this is the first sentence of a section of the text -- a chapter, if you will -- and I don't see the likelihood of the quam referencing something that came before the chapter heading.
Perhaps the quam should be taken with plurimum, a common phrase meaning "as much as possible".
 
 

cinefactus

Censor

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Location:
litore aureo
I wish I could figure out what videorum is supposed to be... My guess would be that it means crucis. There is another reference to patibulum in Gesta Francorum book 10:

Appropinquante autem hora scilicet in qua Dominus noster Iesus Christus dignatus est pro nobis sufferre patibulum crucis

And doing a google search, there are a few references to crucis patibulo including the following from what puports to be a concordance of the Roman Missal. I couldn't find any where cruciatus was immediately next to patibulum/o though.

te exaltavi magna virtute: et tu me suspendisti in patibulo Crucis.

salutaris victima, pro me et omni humano genere in patibulo Crucis oblata.

Deus, qui pro nobis Filium tuum crucis patibulum subire voluisti
 

Cato

Consularis

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Location:
Chicago, IL
Cinefactus dixit:
I wish I could figure out what videorum is supposed to be...
Could this actually be iudeorum = Judaeorum? If a ligature was mis-interpreted in these first two letters, it's a plausible reading. I'm certainly not a fan of the sentiment, but invidia Judaeorum does fit with some older versions of Christian theology...
 

Hroswitha

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Location:
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Cato -- that's brilliant. I remember working on that passage at the Bibliotheque last summer and struggling to find a word, any word, that could be made from those ligatures. The scribe who wrote the text -- Yves perhaps? -- wasn't too particular about capitalization, except for the names of Dionysius, Apollophanus (which might be rendered Apollofanus), and the Apostle St. Paul. So indeed, I may well have been looking at Judeorum instead of videorum.

The most important thing I'm gaining from all of you is HOW to do a better translation. I had never thought of plugging in short constructions to Google to look for historical references, and I'm grateful. From the translation suggestions, I'm also gaining back my earlier proficiency at unraveling constructions, even though Yves was not a classical Latinist. Please keep offering ideas. As I get them, I'm working through the translations to see how you arrived at your conclusions, which is improving my own work. It's actually going faster now, and the work I'm doing is much more comprehensible. If you do come up with an idea on a tangled section of prose, if you tell me how it works, that will help me even further.

My most profound gratitude to you all.
 
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