Could it be Consilio? If so, does it qualify the status of the marriage in some way? Could it mean that they satisfied the priest that they were legally married but were unable to produce a certificate or point to an entry in the register?
I don't know exactly. Generally next 2 generations were farmers (I have a note from 1846 that confrim that fact) but:Mike, do you know what the parents did for a living?
Hm...that's the point. In the archive (all the notes and information i've found there) I had also access to the book with acts of marriage. The fact is that I could not find the act of marriage of Joachim and Jadwiga (Hedvigia). But...I could simply miss it among dozens of other notes.Could it be Consilio? If so, does it qualify the status of the marriage in some way? Could it mean that they satisfied the priest that they were legally married but were unable to produce a certificate or point to an entry in the register?
It does however seem peculiar that they would go from beeing counsilmen and whatnot and almost straight to farming. Did they own land themselves, or were they "renting"? We'll probably reach a more definite conclusion of the mystery word when you take those photos, anyway.I don't know exactly. Generally next 2 generations were farmers (I have a note from 1846 that confrim that fact)
Hmm... That adds a new element to the solving here. Perhaps the mistery word would be a somewhat badly written cum sibi (by herself, i.e. alone)? Or did perhaps con become an ecclesiastical expression for cum? There were probably lots of people who died before seeing their children baptised, so if there were several notes with this word, it could be something in that direction.- maybe Jadwiga (Hedvigia) was a widow? (Joachim died when she was pregnant)
I don't think so. We have a number of examples of final "i": domini, baptisavi, Buchowski, Michalski, patrini. It's always a dotted downstroke. The difficult word ends in an open character ending with an upstroke. Compare this with the final "o"s in the first line. There's a certain inconsistency but the general form is the same. I'm reasonably confident it's consilio.voxlarsi dixit:Mike, do you know what the parents did for a living? The mystery word could definitely be consilii (of the counsil, or something similar).
Yes, in which neither are doubble "i", so we can't really be sure until we might find another example of it. Anyway, I just thought it looked like consilii, and it would of course make more sense if it was placed after Joachim. It could be consilio, but as mentioned, the dot seems to far away from the rest of the i.Decimus Canus dixit:I don't think so. We have a number of examples of final "i": domini, baptisavi, Buchowski, Michalski, patrini.
It seems so indeed, but if you look at the previous title, the same does not apply there; and there is an x there as well. Maybe the priest just ****ed up.The Adalbertum is also quite interesting. It looks too big for the space and there seem to be marks underneath it, as though something else was written there first and then overwritten.
Unfortunately that's the question. I know that in 1850s they were given quite big lands because of law transformation process...but questions: what were they doing earlier?, when did they come there? and what did they possess? do not have answers yet.Did they own land themselves, or were they "renting"?
I found a website with examples and transcriptions of latin baptism acts from polish territories and none of these acts contained a word similar to our mystery word. But in some acts there were many two-word phrases with con and some other word although it seems to be a single word in this note.Perhaps the mistery word would be a somewhat badly written cum sibi
Oh yes! Brilliant remark. It looks as if it is overwritten surely. Especially the last 3 letters. But...hm...I think that the polish priest might have problems with translating the name into latin and e.g. he wrote Adalbertus first and then improved the last letter. On the other hand the letter "f" in filium looks weird. In the note above this letter is written more precisely.The Adalbertum is also quite interesting.
Surely nor. Look at this pic which I've already sent: http://i54.tinypic.com/2pt1lyq.jpg. My idea is that he might mark baptised boys with "X" and girls with "-" but I'm not sure.Is that what the "x" is for in the margin?
It's a good idea, but if you take a look at the uppermost note, there was a girl named Josepha baptised, however, it's marked with an x. (It is not written famellam after her name, as with the rest of the girls. Does that mean anything?) Could it be some codes on whether they were catholics or lutheran?Surely nor. Look at this pic which I've already sent: http://i54.tinypic.com/2pt1lyq.jpg. My idea is that he might mark baptised boys with "X" and girls with "-" but I'm not sure.
You're right about that Jospeha. I think I have to take some more pics from the book to draw some analogy.voxlarsi dixit:It's a good idea, but if you take a look at the uppermost note, there was a girl named Josepha baptised, however, it's marked with an x. (It is not written famellam after her name, as with the rest of the girls. Does that mean anything?) Could it be some codes on whether they were catholics or lutheran?
When you go back to the registry to access the records again it could well be worth asking if they have a specialist there who might be able to shed some more light on the entry, particularly as you now have the bulk of it interpreted and you have specific questions.Mike_M2 dixit:voxlarsi dixit:You're right about that Jospeha. I think I have to take some more pics from the book to draw some analogy.
The handwriting is pretty bad, but I'm almost certain it does say Michalski. It seems all the first names are Latinized, i.e. translated into their Roman equivalent with full inflexion, but the surnames remain in Polish and are indeclinable. Hence I believe it actually reads Hedvigie (for Hedvigiæ), which is what it has to be to be grammatical anyway.Decimus Canus dixit:Third line. I admit I'm struggling with the names. I'm hoping someone else might chip in soon.
Adlabertum filium Joachimi Michaluli et Hedvigia Marcyanowna Constia coniugum legitimorum
... Adalbertus, the son of Joachimus Michalulus and Hedvigia Marcyanowna Constia, lawfully married ...
It looks to be the same letter as at the end of Hedvigi-x, doesn't it? For that reason I'm guessing the word is in apposition with that name.voxlarsi dixit:Yes, in which neither are doubble "i", so we can't really be sure until we might find another example of it. Anyway, I just thought it looked like consilii, and it would of course make more sense if it was placed after Joachim. It could be consilio, but as mentioned, the dot seems to far away from the rest of the i.
This is a bit too much conjecture to apply to a collocation that wouldn't even be grammatical. It's unlikely that the priest, whatever his Latin aptitude may have been, would have used a dative with a preposition. No Latin preposition can ever take a dative object. A simpler error, like using cum se for the grammatical secum, would have been easier to explain.voxlarsi dixit:I'm still pondering if it could be some variant of cum sibi. If you compare the li/b in the mystery word, there is a resemblance to the Lubochnia in the former scription http://i54.tinypic.com/2pt1lyq.jpg. Maybe the father was absent for some reason, and couldn't attend the baptism?
Michalski: agreed.Imber Ranae dixit:The handwriting is pretty bad, but I'm almost certain it does say Michalski. It seems all the first names are Latinized, i.e. translated into their Roman equivalent with full inflexion, but the surnames remain in Polish and are indeclinable. Hence I believe it actually reads Hedvigie (for Hedvigiæ), which is what it has to be to be grammatical anyway.Decimus Canus dixit:Third line. I admit I'm struggling with the names. I'm hoping someone else might chip in soon.
Adlabertum filium Joachimi Michaluli et Hedvigia Marcyanowna Constia coniugum legitimorum
... Adalbertus, the son of Joachimus Michalulus and Hedvigia Marcyanowna Constia, lawfully married ...
It's a medial "s", not an "f". There are a number of known "f"s in the script. In every case the top and bottom loop both run anti-clockwise and there is a small loop to the left of the letter before the final stroke. The long medial "s"s all have a narrow anti-clockwise top loop with a wider clockwise bottom loop leading into a final upstroke. I'm sure it's either consilio or consilis which would be incorrect Latin.I'm less sure about the word that follows the name, but I do have a hunch. There's a rare medieval word confilius which can variously mean "grandson" or "nephew" (like classical nepos) or even "godson". The female equivalent, which would be confilia, is seemingly even more rare. I can't really make out the last letter, but perhaps our mystery word is confilie? (genitive of confilia in agreement with Hedvigie Marcyanowna). I admit I'm not exactly sure how it should be understood here, though.
Consilio can mean "by counsel" or "by advice". What is by counsel? It can only be the fact that they are legally married. "I am satisfied they are married because in the absence of documentation I have made enquiries." I think that's still the best theory.Imber Ranae dixit:Any form of the word consilium wouldn't make much sense here, especially since it would separate the name from the other appositive phrase conjugum legitimorum "legitimate spouses", which is in apposition with both names.
He does seem to write the long "s" this way, and his "f"s differently. The "f" in Albertum filium, however is very similar to the one which is unclear.Decimus Canus dixit:It's a medial "s", not an "f". There are a number of known "f"s in the script. In every case the top and bottom loop both run anti-clockwise and there is a small loop to the left of the letter before the final stroke. The long medial "s"s all have a narrow anti-clockwise top loop with a wider clockwise bottom loop leading into a final upstroke.
No it isn't. Both large loops run anti-clockwise and there is a small loop to the left of the letter before the final stroke. In the problem word the bottom loop is formed clockwise as with every other medial "s".Cinefactus dixit:He does seem to write the long "s" this way, and his "f"s differently. The "f" in Albertum filium, however is very similar to the one which is unclear.Decimus Canus dixit:It's a medial "s", not an "f". There are a number of known "f"s in the script. In every case the top and bottom loop both run anti-clockwise and there is a small loop to the left of the letter before the final stroke. The long medial "s"s all have a narrow anti-clockwise top loop with a wider clockwise bottom loop leading into a final upstroke.
Would it possible for you to talk to a catholic priest who might know what we're dealing with?
Unfortunately it's impossible because the priest who is the host of the archive knows little about the latin. And he is the only person working there. If there was somebody to ask for help (anywhere) I would askit could well be worth asking if they have a specialist there who might be able to shed some more light on the entry
It's almost sure that some incorret latin is used there. Why? - Priests used some common patterns to write such acts. If there was some extraordinary case they had to use their knowledge which was surely doubtful.which would be incorrect Latin
Well maybe but this explanation doesn't convince me. In those times people did not carry documents with themselves (e.g. marriage acts) and I think that such case was common. And many children were baptised not in the same church where the parents got married. Nevertheless I have to look for the act of marriage first to ensure myself.It can only be the fact that they are legally married. "I am satisfied they are married because in the absence of documentation I have made enquiries."
Interesting... I think it looks very much like consibi, so if it means something, I think that could be it. Although, I don't really see the relevance here, as the same word does not appear anywhere else in the list.Mike_M2 dixit:And he added that at first glance he saw "consibi" what could be equivalent to "sibi invicem". What do you think about that?