A prayer: As I grip my sword with callused hands...

[sean]

i wrote this prayer and Im thinking about getting it as a tattoo translated in Latin and i have no knowledge of the language, but would really love to learn it someday. Please, any help would be appreciated!

As I grip my sword with callused hands
let Thine enemies be stalemated to thy judgment
and bring appeasement if it be your command
O Lord, prepare my table in the dawn of battle
so I shall have the protection of all the angels in heaven
and let me not relinquish in respite
but have strength to draw first blood
when first chance takes its plight
when thy scales are set to weigh my heart
may thy wisdom come like a flashing flame
before Your face, no questions suffice
they rest forever in an eternal flame
Lord, let my eyes not fail when looking upwards

written by Sean Riggs


i dont know if words like "thy" or "thine" can be translated to latin, so switch them to "Your" or "Yours" if need be. sorry its a long one

 

[cinefactus]

Re: i need a prayer translated please!

As you may well be aware, the Tyndale & KJV translations were made in the common language of the time, so that the boy driving the plough would be able to read them. Although the issue is clouded somewhat by the application of the familiar you singular French form to English, initially thee, thou & thine just represented you singular.

If you have selected these forms because of the modern perception of religious overtones, you may want to translate the prayer into the style of the Vulgate. On the other hand, the theology more closely approximates that of the Norman crusaders, in which case you might want to choose a style from one of their chronicles.

As far as the theology goes, I think modern teaching would stress the elements of Matt 5:5-9, Matt 5:38-44, 1 John 3:15 & Exodus 20:13.

Before the passage can be translated however, you would need to clarify the meaning of some of the sentences, namely:

let Thine enemies be stalemated to thy judgment
I don't know the word for stalemate I am afraid A more conventional word would be something like 'confounded', and instead of judgement, you might want some other noun.

and bring appeasement if it be your command
Appeasement means to placate someone by acceeding to their demands. In modern times it was used to describe the policy used by Chamberlain to try to placate Hitler. Are you sure you want to use this word here? Furthermore, presumably when God commands, it is done. I think it would be more usual to use the word 'will' instead of 'command'. For consistency too you should say 'thy' instead of 'your'

O Lord, prepare my table in the dawn of battle
I am not a Hebrew scholar, however I suspect that this is not the actual meaning of the expression in Psalm 23.

and let me not relinquish in respite
I don't understand the meaning here


when first chance takes its plight
I don't understand the meaning of plight here

may thy wisdom come like a flashing flame
There are different words for wisdom depending on exactly what you mean—and they may have different meanings depending on whether you are reading classical or mediaeval Latin. What exactly were you wanting to pray for?


they rest forever in an eternal flame
what is the 'they' referring to?

If you read through Psalms, there are quite a few prayers of David talking about confounding his enemies. You might want to adopt some of the expressions used there.

If you can clarify these points, I could certainly translate this into either a Vulgate or a Norman style as a linguistic challenge. Before having it indelibly inscribed in your flesh however, may wish to consider that I am only a mediocre Latin student, rather than a Classics Professor. Besides, just a a practical point, without knowing Latin how were you planning to determine that I wasn't translating Isaiah 2:4, or Isaiah 11:6

It sounds like you have some interest in Mediaeval history. Why not learn some Latin first? It would give you access to what really happened, rather than the politically correct versions of what people wished were true, that you have probably been taught in school...

JD

PS for an example of a deliberate internet mistranslation go to http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Latin_proverbs where some helpful soul has translated Bis dat, qui cito dat (he who gives swiftly gives twice) as "He who eats young children throws up young adults"...

 

[sean]

let Thine enemies be stalemated to thy judgment
(use confounded instead of stalemated)

and bring appeasement if it be your command
(appeasement or act of appeasing: To bring peace, quiet, or calm to; soothe.)( I used command for the sake of the rhyme)

and let me not relinquish in respite
(sorry I had the wrong word here for respite. Use debility.
debility:
noun
The condition of being infirm or physically weak)

when first chance takes its plight
(plight: A situation, especially a bad or unfortunate one.) such as when something wrong or a bad chance occurs.

may thy wisdom come like a flashing flame
(my idea of wisdom was of information or grace)

like chaff in the wind they disappear before Your Name
(I just changed this line from the they rest forever in an eternal flame , they refers to questions in the previous line)


this was my first crack at something like this so sorry for the confusions

 

[sean]

i understand that some of the translations may not be perfect. im not getting this as a tattoo any time soon so im making thorough investigation into this. im just kinda working on a roughdraft and then ill find someone who can properly translate it

 

[cinefactus]

this was my first crack at something like this so sorry for the confusions

Don't apologise—you have made a good start & I particularly like the last line On the other hand, it is important that the meaning is clear before you start translating—or the back translation from Latin to English will be gibberish...

As I understand it, is should now stand something like:

As I grip my sword with callused hands
let Thine enemies be confounded by thy judgment
and bring peace if it be your command
O Lord, prepare my table in the dawn of battle
so I shall have the protection of all the angels in heaven
and let me not yield through weakness
but have strength to draw first blood
when first chance takes its plight
when thy scales are set to weigh my heart
may thy wisdom come like a flashing flame
Before Your face, no questions suffice
like chaff in the wind they disappear before Your Name
Lord, let my eyes not fail when looking upwards

You are completely correct about the word appeasement, in that it used to have this meaning. Following World War II however, the word has acquired a derogatory connotation. A further problem is that when it is used in the bible, it is usually talking about some kind of gift being given to placate someone's anger. I can't find the verse to hand, however one translation has the death of Jesus being offered as an appeasement for mans' sin. If you wish, you can translate this into Latin, however the back translation would give you something like, "and bring atonement if it be your command", which I think is not quite your meaning.

Relinquish is a transitive verb—you need an object. Yield is probably a better choice. Debility implies a frailty through sickness. I think your meaning is closer to something like Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak". Is that correct?

The parts which still are problematic are:
when first chance takes its plight. The problem here is that you have two conflicting nouns. First chance is a good thing, which would would want to take. A plight is a bad situation, and you tend to be in it, rather than to take it.

and bring peace if it be your command. This is translatable as it stands, however, as I said, the command of God is done rather than requested, & it seems out of character that a spiritually inclined knight would imply that God's command might not be fulfilled! The words do not necessarily rhyme in Latin, so this does not have to be a consideration. Potential alternatives would be, "and bring peace by your command" or "and bring peace if it be your will".

prepare my table in the dawn of battle—this is also easy enough to translate, but as I say, I suspect it doesn't quite have this meaning. On the other hand, a spiritual knight might well have kept vigil before a battle, praying that God would make him worthy. You could therefore pray:
O Lord, prepare my heart in the dawn of battle
and grant me the protection of all the angels in heaven.

Just as a final suggestion, the first line is good and sets the scene vividly, but the flow from to first to the second is not quite so obvious. If you moved it further down, or moved one of the later lines up, you would have a set of 6 matched couplets with the last line standing alone:
As I grip my sword with callused hands
let me not yield through weakness
Others might disagree with me. This is pretty much personal preference.

Let me know what you think.

JD

 

[sean]

any suggestions on the line: "when first chance takes its plight"?

 

[cinefactus]

The trouble with the first chance line is that I don't understand your meaning. Furthermore the style of this couplet is a little different to the others, and drawing first blood does not necessarily imply winning.

My guess is that you mean something like, "When things look bad". Take a look through Psalms, you will find plenty of models there.

FWIW as far as the rest goes, here is my attempt

As I grip my sword with callused hands
Dum ensis cum callosis rapio manibus
rapio means I sieze, rather than I grip, however it is a verb which commonly goes with taking up a sword.
let me not yield through weakness
Domine ne me sinas per infirmitatem cedere
I have added a "Oh Lord" here

let Thine enemies be confounded by thy judgment
confundantur inimici tui a iudicio tuo
and bring peace if it be your command
et si placet tibi pacem mittas

O Lord, prepare my heart in the dawn of battle
Domine, diluculo proeli pares cor meum
and grant the protection of all the angels in heaven
in omnium caelo angelorum des praesidium

when thy scales are set to weigh my heart
cum ponetur statera tua ut cor meum ponderet
may thy wisdom come like a flashing flame
sapientia tua quasi flamma coruscans superveniat

Before Your face, no questions suffice
coram facie tua non sufficient dubia
like chaff in the wind they disappear before Your Name
coram Nomine tuo quasi palea ante faciem venti dispergunt

Lord, let my eyes not fail when looking upwards
Domine, ne sinas deficere meos sursum aspicientes oculos
This means, "Lord, let not my upwardly gazing eyes fail"
or
Domine, noli sinere deficere oculos meos cum sursum aspicient
This means, "Lord, let my eyes not fail when they are looking upwards"

JD

 

[sean]

ok...i rewrote it. hope this one makes sence this time. some lines are the same.

As I seize my sword with callused hands
Let thine enemies be obstructed to thy judgement
and let me not waylay Your will to the world's demands
Oh Lord, prepare my table in the dawn of battle
and grant me protection from Your very hands
and let me not faulter or fail to raise my sword
when faithlessness and fatigue is rung about my arms and neck
but endow me with strength to swing my blade
and shed first blood when first plight hath cast it's bet
when the scales are set to weigh my heart
may Thy Grace come like a flashing flame
Lord, let not my upwardly gazing eyes fail
and steady my hands when they raise to take aim

 

[sean]

bloodthirsty prayer

i posted another thread for this but nobody responded so im tryin a new one. i rewrote it by the way. any translation would help.

As I seize my sword with callused hands
Let thine enemies be obstructed by thy judgement
and let me not waylay Your will to the world's demands
Oh Lord, prepare my table in the dawn of battle
and grant me protection from Your very hands
and let me not faulter or fail to raise my sword
when faithlessness and fatigue is rung about my arms and neck
but endow me with strength to swing my blade
and shed first blood when first plight hath cast it's bet
when the scales are set to weigh my heart
may Thy Grace come like a flashing flame
Lord, let not my upwardly gazing eyes fail
and steady my hands when they raise to take aim

 

[Iynx]

nobody responded

Sean, I am more than a little puzzled here. Maybe we have a technical glitch of some kind. Can you not see StCinder's lengthy and learned comments on your earlier post?

If this is the case I am very sorry. I don't want you to feel that we are ignoring your posts.

From my point of view, the principal difficulty in translating your text into Latin is that I don't understand what most of it means in English. (Please don't be offended; that probably says less about your ability as a writer than about my lack of intelligence and taste. I don't understand most of James Joyce, either, and admitting that has gotten me laughed at quite a lot). But I can't translate what I can't understand.

Some of the more straightforward problems are as follows:

1. "Protection from Your very hands" I don't get it. Do you perhaps
mean "The protection of Your hands? Why would the speaker
seek (in this context) protection from the hands of God?
2. Actually, I'll have to admit that I'm not even clear Who is being
addressed. It would appear to be a singular Entity early and late
("Thine, Thy"), and a Plurality in the middle ("Your"). No doubt I am
missing some subtlety here.
3. "Faulter". Do you mean "falter"?. Or is this some sort of play on
words?
4. "rung about my arms and neck". You can't mean "wrung" can you?
Either way, I in my ignorance can make neither head nor tail of this.
5. "When first plight hath cast it's bet." Do you mean "its bet"? Either
way I'm lost. I don't know what you mean by "first plight"; neither do
I know what it means to "cast a bet".
6. "They raise to take aim". Again, I can't imagine what you mean.
"Raise" is transitive, of course-- where's the object? You can't
mean "rise" can you?

More broadly: is this verse? I suppose so, since you call it a poem, and since it is divided into lines in a way that would be unusual for prose. But I must confess that I cannot see the pattern. I have tried stress, and weight, and syllable-count, and I'm afraid that I just can't see or hear it. Perhaps this is what is called free verse?

When one translates verse one ought (I think) make some effort to render in the target language both the meaning and the music, but in this case, alas, I can neither comprehend the one nor hear the other.

What do I understand? Well, I think we are hearing a warrior who is about to do battle address the Deity. Is that right?

Holding that picture in my mind, I can venture a (prose) rendering of your first line ("As I seize my sword with calloused hands"):

Dum ensem meum cum manibus callosis prendo...

I (and I'm sure StCinder and others) would like to help you get this into Latin. But you are going to have to come back to us, both on the big picture, and on each individual expression. Otherwise, I don't think we're going to get much further.

Incidentally, isn't this rather long for a tattoo? But since you mention the possibility, I should refer you to the Disclaimer at the top of this Section.