-aceae or -aceæ?

Alexius

Member
Hello, ladies and gents :D

I just have a question. I am a botanist and have seen both -aceae and -aceæ be used as endings when denoting plant families. Which is the more correct form in terms of Latin?

So would it be Rosaceae or Rosaceæ?

In addition, how is the actual Latin pronounced. What I make from the dictionary is Rose-a (ahh)-c (cat)- ai (aisle). Sounds like Rosaki??? I pronounce it as Ros-ac (ace)- e (see). This completely leaves out the -ae but I have heard most botanist pronounce it this way. I think also Ros- ac (ace)- e (see)-ai (aisle) won't be that bad, but what the dictionary says, Rosaki, is just weird. Sounds Japanese :swords: Is this how it was pronounced (or is pronounced by ecclesiastical Latin)?Any help would be nice :D
 

LVXORD

Civis Illustris
The way I've learnt (Classical Latin) would be the Rose-a (ahh)-c (cat)- ai (aisle) way. But this is in Botany (not actual Latin), so it could be different. As for the ligatures, I'm pretty sure they are both correct.
 

Alexius

Member
Rosakai sounds so strange :think: But yeah, I think I'll use -aceæ to denote plant families on my voucher labels. Thanks luxord :)
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
In classical Latin (the way Romans are thought to have spoken more or less), the pronounciation would be rossake-ie (a as in father, the e pronounced a bit like the a in pavement - more or less - and ie as in "lie"). But in later medieval/ecclesiastical Latin rosache-e approximately, ch as in cherry, e as the a in pavement again...

Romans didn't make the ligature in ae, it came later in medieval times.
 

malleolus

Civis Illustris
EDIT:
It would be, like , Rose-a (ahh)-c (cat)- e (as in letter m /em/) - ai (aisle) for me.
As for the ligature , you would not find it in Classical Latin.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
But you forget the -e before the -ae it seems to me. It's roseceae, not rosacae.
 

Alexius

Member
Okay, so it was not a part of classical Latin. Good to know. I know -aceae is not a suffix used in classical times =) And thanks to all for the pronunciations.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Maybe Godmy could make us a little recording of both classical and medieval pronunciation...
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Yes, something approaching in classical. BTW, I agree that the pronunciation of -ae sounds a bit Japanese :).
 

Godmy

A Monkey
;)
First I think that "ae" is not 100% the "aj" sound (= "ei" in lie) in the classical age (and by hearing the Vivarium Novum people) but it's closer (but not absolutely) to "a-e" (something in between "aj" and "a-e").

These are my recordings of "rosaceae" in the restituted pronunciation and the medieval "central European" pronunciation.

Edit: Those little distinctions I mentioned would be probably better heard in a different word then -eae (for both pronunciations).
 

Attachments

Alexius

Member
;)
First I think that "ae" is not 100% the "aj" sound (= "ei" in lie) in the classical age (and by hearing the Vivarium Novum people) but it's closer (but not absolutely) to "a-e" (something in between "aj" and "a-e").

These are my recordings of "rosaceae" in the restituted pronunciation and the medieval "central European" pronunciation.

Edit: Those little distinctions I mentioned would be probably better heard in a different word then -eae (for both pronunciations).

Thanks Godmy. Sounds a bit strange to me, but it is what it is. Also, I found this one site, where the guy pronounces it -aceae as che, as in Che or cheese? Is this also acceptable? He used the family Ranunculaceae as the example. So sounds like Ranuncula-che!

http://la.raycui.com/scientificname.html
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Well, Godmy's "medieval recording" is with central-European pronunciation... But in the "Italian way", it's as in cheese I think! There are many pronunciations really...
 

Alexius

Member
Well, Godmy's "medieval recording" is with central-European pronunciation... But in the "Italian way", it's as in cheese I think! There are many pronunciations really...
I guess there are =( Well, at least I know the ligature was not part of classical Latin =) The whole Kiai and kai endings just don't sound Latin lol.
 

Godmy

A Monkey
I apologize, I found one "medieval" defect in my classical pronunciation (I won't tell you which though :D... I didn't even spotted it the first time), so here another recording.

And also the Italian way (or I hope so :p).
 

Attachments

Alexius

Member
I apologize, I found one "medieval" defect in my classical pronunciation (I won't tell you which though :D... I didn't even spotted it the first time), so here another recording.

And also the Italian way (or I hope so :p).
yeah, the che I can live with, but rosakai is to0 much :grin-huge: looooool
 

Adrian

Civis Illustris
Salve Alexius, the site you provided link to has funny pronunciation. My friendly advice: please do not consider that site as valid source for pronunciation of bothanical names.:)


I apologize, I found one "medieval" defect in my classical pronunciation (I won't tell you which though :D... I didn't even spotted it the first time), so here another recording.
And also the Italian way (or I hope so :p).
What a gentle and mild voice... as if a little angel spoke:p surely a devilish trick of the prince of darkness himself aimed at weakening my guard and vigilance.
 
Top