Aeneid XIII - Maffeo Vegio

Katarina

Member
I have problems resolving this sentence:

Tunc Turnum super adsistens placido ore profatur
Aeneas: "Quae tanta animo dementia crevit,
ut Teucros superum montis summique Tonantis
imperio huc vectos patereris, Daunia proles,
Italia et pactis nequiquam expellere tectis?

Then Aeneas speaks with placid mouth standing next to Turnus: What kind of great madness grew in the spirit, so that ... you suffer, let? ... the Teucri carried to this place on command of [the one who makes the sounds of thunder = Jove] from the top of the mountain/biggest mountain, the child of Daunios and someone expels the Teucri in vain from? promised dwellings.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
- Montis is a mistake. It should be monitis.

- Superum is a poetic genitive plural (= superorum). The superi are "those of above", the gods.

- Daunia proles is vocative and refers to Turnus (Aeneas is addressing his dead enemy).

- ut patereris... expellere = something like "that you could bear to expel".

- Perhaps it would make more sense to take nequiquam with pactis.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Tunc Turnum super adsistens placido ore profatur
I wonder whether this means 1) that he spoke while standing on (super) Turnus's body or 2) that he spoke over (super) Turnus's body while standing next to (ad-) it.

My first interpretation was 1) but then I became unsure, though it's probably the more likely one.
 

AoM

nulli numeri
First I'm hearing of... this.

Well, at least it was from an Italian.
 

Dantius

Homo Sapiens
Staff member
First I'm hearing of... this.

Well, at least it was from an Italian.
I've heard of it before but never read it. It seems kind of pointless. The Aeneid's ending is good as is.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member

Katarina

Member
- Montis is a mistake. It should be monitis.
That is true, it was a typo.

I wonder whether this means 1) that he spoke while standing on (super) Turnus's body or 2) that he spoke over (super) Turnus's body while standing next to (ad-) it.

My first interpretation was 1) but then I became unsure, though it's probably the more likely one.
My first interpretation was 2).
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
My first interpretation was 2).

Mine would have been 1), but that also has to do with the fact that I don't fully understand what Pacifica means by "speaking over". If "speaking about" is what she had in mind, I would consider it be a rather unlikely reading because it would seem like a strange phrasing in Latin to me.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I've just noticed that assistere can not only mean 'to stand', but also the action that comes before standing somewhere, i.e. 'to put yourself somewhere, to step somewhere'.
I've also noticed that the line is an echo of the incomplete half-line from Aen. 10,490 after Turnus killed Pallas:
quem Turnus super adsistens (quem = Pallantem)

This dictionary entry mentions Aen. 10,490 in this context/meaning of assistere:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=assisto

So I thought it should be taken as stepping on him, i.e. putting his foot on him or something.
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
I thought it was about the Olympus and it was a genitive modifying imperio like tonantis, but it seems you are right.
I thought the same, it could be a different reading. Well, one (obviously) cannot find this in PHI texts... so PDFs would be have to be checked.


I agree with Pacifica that it seems to be a bit unnatural a reading and that monitis would flow better ... mainly because I don't recall (and can't immediately find) any instance where mons means 'THE mountain', i.e. Olympus ... (unlike urbs, for example, which often means THE city, i.e. Rome)

If I read it as a genitive, I would take it to be modifying superum, not imperio, but as I said, it seems a bit unusual semantically.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member

AoM

nulli numeri
I've just noticed that assistere can not only mean 'to stand', but also the action that comes before standing somewhere, i.e. 'to put yourself somewhere, to step somewhere'.
I've also noticed that the line is an echo of the incomplete half-line from Aen. 10,490 after Turnus killed Pallas:
quem Turnus super adsistens (quem = Pallantem)

This dictionary entry mentions Aen. 10,490 in this context/meaning of assistere:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=assisto

So I thought it should be taken as stepping on him, i.e. putting his foot on him or something.
Oh yeah. That first line is a direct callback to 10.490 (Turnus standing over a dead Pallas > Aeneas standing over a dead Turnus).
 

Katarina

Member
Sceptrum idem sublime geret; sententia mentem
haec habet;
at bello vos et praestantibus armis
discite me et pietate sequi.


Is this realy thought like sententia mentem habet or it is a figure where you switch grammatical ... something. I am having problems with english right now. So here I think it should really be
 

Katarina

Member
Ah, sorry, I have problems with internet and it didn't send all what I wrote.

So i think it should be mens sententiam habet (minds have the opinion) but it is swithced because latin autors just like to do this sometimes?
 

Katarina

Member
non secus Anchisa genitus mulcebat amicis
Troianos dictis, antiquum corde timorem
flagrantisque agitans curas et gaudia longis
tandem parta malis, et quae perferre molestum
ante fuit
, meminisse iuvat.

So I suppose this part goes with meminisse iuvat and not agitans. Memini can goe with acc., so I could take quae as acc. pl. n. but I am not sure what I can do with molestum. Can it be taken as a gen. pl. as a genitivus partitivus with quae? I have no other idea how to solve this ...
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
It's an AcI interwoven with a relative clause.
quae is an accusative plural.

As a main clause, it would be 'molestum fuit ea (=eas res) perferre' = "It was hard/annoying to sustain/bear these things)"
Now it becomes meminisse iuvat ea (= earum rerum), quae perferre ante molestum fuit
'it is pleasant to remember these things, which were previously hard to bear'
 

Katarina

Member
... Verum altior idem
ingenti et clara Aeneas supereminet omnes
virtute excellens, et pro tot numina donis
exorat summisque Iovem cum laudibus effert.


Not sure how to put it together.

Verum idem Aeneas altior ingenti supereminet ... omnes? I don't know where to put clara.
Indeed the same Aeneas, grater (higher??) then one that is very big (ingens), surpasses all (people), being greater by the virtue.
I don't find this makes any sense.
 
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