And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow alone

A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi! Please, I need some help!

There's a notorious quote from Virgil (The Aeneid, Book 11, v. 128):

"Et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur."

...wich Jules Verne translate to "And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow" (Journey to the Center of the Earth).

Well, I would like to add "alone" in latin quote:

"And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow alone".

What is the correct translation for "follow alone" in this sentence? "sequamur solus"? "sequamur soli"?

Thank you all in advance!
 

Nikolaos

schmikolaos
Staff member
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

I think "sequamur soli" should suffice, but wait for another to confirm this.
 

Matthaeus

Vemortuicida strenuus
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

If 'whatever route' is supposed to be the object of fortuna, then it should be quamcumque viam, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
 

Chamaeleo

New Member
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

victorlisboa dixit:
"Et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur."

...wich Jules Verne translate to "And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow" (Journey to the Center of the Earth).
That does not appear to be true. If you look at the end of chapter XI in the original text of Voyage au centre de la terre, it seems that the phrase is quoted as follows:

Jules Verne dixit:
Et quacunque viam dederit fortuna sequamur
This is not then translated into French, and certainly not into English (a highly dubious claim to start with!).

This English version puts the following English translation in brackets, after the Latin:

("And whichsoever way thou goest, may fortune follow!")
This English version supplies the following translation, after the Latin.

"Therever fortune clears a way,

Thither our ready footsteps stray."
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

victorlisboa dixit:
Hi! Please, I need some help!

There's a notorious quote from Virgil (The Aeneid, Book 11, v. 128):

"Et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur."
That's wrong to begin with. The line runs

et tē, sī quă uĭam dĕdĕrit Fortūnă, Lătīnō
(iungēmus rēgī)

lit. "and if any Fortune will have provided a way, we will join you (=contrive a contract) with the Latin king "

in this verse qua has a short a and belongs to Fortuna;

in Jules Verne's phrase the a can't be short for metrical reasons, so I think we should consider Matthaeus's conjecture and change it to quamcumque

"And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow alone".

What is the correct translation for "follow alone" in this sentence? "sequamur solus"? "sequamur soli"?
I don't think you want to mess up the hexametre that way... it would make you sound quite ignorant
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

I've just noticed there's also the adverb quācumque meaning 'wherever'. Maybe your conjecture is not necessary after all, Matt
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

That's wrong to begin with. The line runs

et tē, sī quă uĭam dĕdĕrit Fortūnă, Lătīnō
(iungēmus rēgī)
Well, blame Jules Verne. :)

Additionally, in the William Butcher's version ("Journey to the Centre of the Earth", Oxford University Press, 1992 – wich is "based on the 1867 one used in modern French editions - Livre de Poche, Garnier-Flammarion, Rencontre, Hachette"), the phrase is quoted as "Et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur". Butcher translates this sentence as "And whatever route fortune gives, we shall follow", and expressly attributes it to Virgil ("The Aeneid, Book 11, v. 128", he writes).

So, blame William Butcher too.

If 'whatever route' is supposed to be the object of fortuna, then it should be quamcumque viam, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Verne was student in a french "seminaire", where latin was one of the most important disciplines. His learning was based in one book: "Eléments de la grammaire latine par Lhomond, professeur emerite de la ci-devant Universite de Paris". The latin sentence is a pointer to the pages 229/231 of the 1800 edition of Charles François Lhomond's book - "quacumque": the middle word CUM (never CUN) means "with", "avec", "mit".

Here I've found this ancient sentences:

Cic. Q. Fr. 2, 8 (10), 1: “qui quācumque de causā ad eos venerunt,” Caes. B. C. 6, 23: “quocumque modo,” Liv. 22, 58, 5: “ubicumque et quācumque matre genitus,” id. 1, 3, 3: “qui de quācumque causā tum aspernati nostra auxilia estis,” id. 45, 23, 6: “quācumque condicione arma viris auferre”...
Additionally, in German edition ("Reise zum Mittelpunkt der Erde", Fischer Tachenbuch Verlag, 1998., page 90), also the Verne's sentence is: "Et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur".

That does not appear to be true. If you look at the end of chapter XI in the original text of Voyage au centre de la terre, it seems that the phrase is quoted as follows:

(...)
That's the original text or a adaptation to modern french? Here, here and here the phrase is quoted as "quacumque".


This English version puts the following English translation in brackets, after the Latin: "And whichsoever way thou goest, may fortune follow!"
This English version supplies the following translation, after the Latin: "Therever fortune clears a way, Thither our ready footsteps stray."
The first and second translations are absolutely dissimilar. In fact, while the first probably denotes either ignorance or negligence, the second is a poetic version of "Whatever way destiny gives, we shall follow". In the original sentence, "fortuna" doesn't mean "(good) fortune", but "destiny", "fate", "chance", so "may fortune follow" sound quite strange. In German edition (Op. cit), the Verne's sentence is translated to "Welchen Weg uns das Geschick auch weisen wird, wir folgen ihm" ("Whatever way destiny gives, we shall follow", in english). In Archeologia Sotterranea #1 (October, 2009), Leonella De Santis, Leonella De Santis, Italian archaeologist, quote "et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur" and translate the phrase as "e qualunque sia la sua direzione, seguiamo la via che la sorte ci ha dato" (something like “And whatever direction destiny gives, we shall follow”).

I don't think you want to mess up the hexametre that way... it would make you sound quite ignorant
Well, I'm just as ignorant in English as anyone whose first language isn't English AND is still learning it. In true, I can consider myself just as ignorant as anyone here, when you all decided to learn Latin by practicing and asking other people without fear. Anyway, "we follow alone" was huge my mistake. What I mean is something like "And whatever route destiny gives, we shall follow (that route) in solitude" (i.e.: every man has to follow his own destiny in solitude).

Thank you all, anyway...
 

Bitmap

Civis Illustris
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

victorlisboa dixit:
Well, blame Jules Verne. :)

(...)

So, blame William Butcher too.
I blame you for not double-checking :>

the middle word CUM (never CUN) means "with", "avec", "mit".
?

That's like saying the middle word in FLOWER means "low"

I've found this ancient sentences:

Cic. Q. Fr. 2, 8 (10), 1: “qui quācumque de causā ad eos venerunt,” Caes. B. C. 6, 23: “quocumque modo,” Liv. 22, 58, 5: “ubicumque et quācumque matre genitus,” id. 1, 3, 3: “qui de quācumque causā tum aspernati nostra auxilia estis,” id. 45, 23, 6: “quācumque condicione arma viris auferre”...
The small problem that occured with your sentence is that in your sample sentences, a form of quicumque is in agreement with a noun whereas in Jules Verne's hexametre it is not. However, qua can also mean "where/by which way", so quacumque can be understood as "wherever"



That's the original text or a adaptation to modern french? Here, here and here the phrase is quoted as "quacumque".
in Latin, you find both variants cumque and cunque ... (this is rather regular a variation of m before qu - cf numquam/nunquam and tamquam/tanquam)

The first and second translations are absolutely dissimilar. In fact, while the first probably denotes either ignorance or negligence, the second is a poetic version of "Whatever way destiny gives, we shall follow". In the original sentence, "fortuna" doesn't mean "(good) fortune", but "destiny", "fate", "chance", so "may fortune follow" sound quite strange. In German edition (Op. cit), the Verne's sentence is translated to "Welchen Weg uns das Geschick auch weisen wird, wir folgen ihm" ("Whatever way destiny gives, we shall follow", in english). In Archeologia Sotterranea #1 (October, 2009), Leonella De Santis, Leonella De Santis, Italian archaeologist, quote "et quacumque viam dederit fortuna sequamur" and translate the phrase as "e qualunque sia la sua direzione, seguiamo la via che la sorte ci ha dato" (something like “And whatever direction destiny gives, we shall follow”).
These translations all meet the sense of this sentence. However, I think a literal translation would be "Wherever Fortuna will provide a way, we will follow it"

Well, I'm just as ignorant in English as anyone whose first language isn't English AND is still learning it. In true, I can consider myself just as ignorant as anyone here, when you all decided to learn Latin by practicing and asking other people without fear. Anyway, "we follow alone" was huge my mistake. What I mean is something like "And whatever route destiny gives, we shall follow (that route) in solitude" (i.e.: every man has to follow his own destiny in solitude).

Thank you all, anyway...
The thing is that the phrase is a hexametre, a verse that has to meet a number of metric regulations to work. If you just add words to it, you break the metre and also the melody - just like you would not simply insert words into a Shakesperean poem.
 

Chamaeleo

New Member
Re: Changing Virgil/Jules Verne sentence!

victorlisboa dixit:
That does not appear to be true. If you look at the end of chapter XI in the original text of Voyage au centre de la terre, it seems that the phrase is quoted as follows:

(...)
That's the original text or a adaptation to modern french? Here, here and here the phrase is quoted as "quacumque".
My point was not that it should be an n rather than an m (both were used by the Romans — the former better represents the pronunciation; the latter, the etymology), but rather the fact that the phrase appears only in Latin. Verne offers no translation, contrary to what you had claimed.

victorlisboa dixit:
This English version puts the following English translation in brackets, after the Latin: "And whichsoever way thou goest, may fortune follow!"
This English version supplies the following translation, after the Latin: "Therever fortune clears a way, Thither our ready footsteps stray."
The first and second translations are absolutely dissimilar.
I know. Don’t blame me.

Those are published translations, and so in some sense ‘official’. I thought it would therefore interest you to see them. They also illustrate the fact that it was Verne’s translators, rather than he himself, who have produced non-Latin versions of the phrase.

victorlisboa dixit:
I don't think you want to mess up the hexametre that way... it would make you sound quite ignorant
Well, I'm just as ignorant in English as anyone whose first language isn't English AND is still learning it.
Bitmap wasn’t trying to insult you there. It’s just that if you add a word to a hexameter, it will look very silly to anyone able to appreciate it. It would be like taking ‘an apple a day keeps the doctor away’ and changing it to ‘an apple a day keeps the doctor away from you’. Only someone oblivious to the rhyme could butcher it like that.
 
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