Are you sitting?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

And they said it would be the easiest deal in history. All those sunlit uplands awaiting. Those are their words, not parody, though you'd be forgiven for thinking they were.

Now even a Brexit Party MEP can admit that leaving without a deal could inflict 30 years' worth of damage. Thirty years.

 

[Hawkwood]

I asked you what you expected when you voted leave. You told me you thought Britain would leave with a deal with the EU.

Could you link, please so I can gather some context?

I did for a time think successful negotiations might take place but I was also very much weary of Westminster. I will admit their sabotage is far worse and now blatantly more obvious than I could ever have imagined in 2016.

 

[Hawkwood]

Well, that's intellectually inconsistent ... if you defend the standpoint that it's a representational democracy, then you shouldn't bother with a referendum in the first place: If it's a representational democracy, parliament should make the decision on remain vs leave on behalf of its constituents.

No it's not inconsistent at all of me. Representational democracies have used referendums in the past so I'm not sure of your point here.

If it's to state I can't bemoan the fact that parliament are openly trying to stop the referendum result without being a hypocrite of sorts then all I can say is you're either partizan or can't see the issue at hand over the last 3 years since we were supposed to have left.

 

[Bitmap]

Could you link, please so I can gather some context?

http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/brexit.25484/page-47#post-472198

I did for a time think successful negotiations might take place but I was also very much weary of Westminster. I will admit their sabotage is far worse and now blatantly more obvious than I could ever have imagined in 2016.

The negotiations were successful. I know you don't like the deal May brought home, but that's all the EU was and is ready to offer. You would have complained if there had been a parliament majority for May's deal although it would have meant carrying out exactly what the referendum demanded: leaving the EU.

 

[Bitmap]

No it's not inconsistent at all of me. Representational democracies have used referendums in the past so I'm not sure of your point here.

So representational democracies can have one binary referendum on a particular question, but are not allowed to have a second binary one on a different question?

 

[Hawkwood]

http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/brexit.25484/page-47#post-472198




The negotiations were successful. I know you don't like the deal May brought home, but that's all the EU was and is ready to offer. You would have complained if there had been a parliament majority for May's deal although it would have meant carrying out exactly what the referendum demanded: leaving the EU.

Not exactly sure what your point is here other than to highlight my reluctance at May's plan. So no I am not a fan of May's treaty but what of it?

 

[Hawkwood]

So representational democracies can have one binary referendum on a particular question, but are not allowed to have a second binary one on a different question?

Bitmap, we're going over ground we've both already covered. I've told you before I'm not in favour of using a second referendum to tweak an initial referendum. It's a fairly widely held view and one which I will not cede ground on.

Probably best we agree to disagree as I've gave up actively debating brexit on here. My aim on this thread is to pop on the more colourful episodes from parliaments.

 

[Bitmap]

I've told you before I'm not in favour of using a second referendum to tweak an initial referendum. It's a fairly widely held view and one which I will not cede ground on.

I'm not sure if you understand what I mean. My point was not to have a second referendum that essentially asks the same question again. Britain voted leave – fine. I'm just saying you should have a referendum on how leaving should be carried out: a) with the deal that has been proposed or b) without a deal at all. That wouldn't be in contradiction with the original referendum... but it would solve a question parliament can't seem to solve.

 

[Hawkwood]

Live feed of parliament. Boris has held himself quite admirably thus far considering what he's up against in this current ghastly parliament.


Edit: the option to rewind is available via the live feed too, if anyone is sad enough (like me) to have it on all day.

 

[Dantius]

The discussion of a second referendum reminds me of this post from somewhere on the internet.

 

[Hawkwood]

It's not your choosing fish that's the issue or that requires alteration but the restaurant itself. You should expect to be served fish if you've paid for fish so let's briefly look at the restaurant and deduce why you're not being served fish.

The only groups (within media and parliament) calling for the electorate to vote again are those that favour remaining within the EU, the very same groups who have derailed and stopped the will of the electorate for over 3 years.

 

[rothbard]

Britain voted leave – fine. I'm just saying you should have a referendum on how leaving should be carried out: a) with the deal that has been proposed or b) without a deal at all. That wouldn't be in contradiction with the original referendum... but it would solve a question parliament can't seem to solve.

The problem is that there are two different versions of the deal available: the original one with the Northern Ireland only backstop, and the one with the UK wide backstop which was agreed at Theresa May's request, and it's not clear which one should be put to such a referendum.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Boris has held himself quite admirably thus far considering what he's up against in this current ghastly parliament.

I'm on a phone, so can't argue in depth, but he has shown himself to be a grotesque simulacrum of a human being. Like the bleating sheep that follow him. I urge you to look at the link; incidentally, the magazine in question (which I used to enjoy occasionally) has become right-wing brexity to the point of self-parody, so this can't be dismissed as the usual suspects.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/boris-johnson-dismisses-mps-complaint-about-abuse-as-humbug/

 

[Hawkwood]

The problem is that there are two different versions of the deal available: the original one with the Northern Ireland only backstop, and the one with the UK wide backstop which was agreed at Theresa May's request, and it's not clear which one should be put to such a referendum.

And further compounded by the fact that if we did have another vote along Bitmap's suggestion (which I doubt will occur without having some form of remain on the card) then all parliament need do if we vote to leave through fruitful negotiations only, is to vote down every negotiation plan government puts forward. It will be a repeat of the last 3 years minus the default position of the result which is where we find ourselves now.

 

[Hawkwood]

"This parliament must either stand aside and let this government get brexit done or bring a vote of no confidence and finally face a day of reckoning with the voters"

A highlight from Boris yesterday in the House.

 

[Hawkwood]

Live from the House. Rewind option is available again.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

In case you want to marvel at how such a poundshop conman is able to get away with shitting on an entire country.

Let's solve the problem of a Northern Irish border by having two borders. Genius.

 

[Bitmap]

Let's solve the problem of a Northern Irish border by having two borders. Genius.

I've heard that in some places, the border runs not only through villages but sometimes even through the same house ... and it would be hard to imagine how to have a strong border there ... that proposal would at least solve that problem, I suppose.

 

[Terry S.]

I've heard that in some places, the border runs not only through villages but sometimes even through the same house ... and it would be hard to imagine how to have a strong border there ... that proposal would at least solve that problem, I suppose.

That is true. In the Bad Old Days Britain just blew up the backroads so people would have to go through approved border crossings. If you were determined to go by another way there was the chance you'd be picked up by one army or another out patrolling the sticks.

 

[Hawkwood]

Ukrainian parliament appear to brawl a fair bit.