Arx prima loci ab Hunnis eorumque; Duce Gelmelio structa...

pietvandeun

New Member
Who can translate this 17th century latin text ?

"Arx prima loci ab Hunnis corumq; Duce Gelmelio structa perhibetur"

thx

Piet
 

SaepePecca

New Member
I'll lay out some gibberish to get you started, then someone proficient will eventually clean up my mess :) Not sure what to make of corumque, neither corus, -i, nor coris, -is, made sense to me in this sentence, and the semi-colon seemed oddly placed. All of which = I'm not reading it right.

"The first fortress, having been built at that place (something about Huns, somethign about corumq), is held by Duke Gelmelio."
 

pietvandeun

New Member
Hi,

I went looking for another edition of the book and their was eorumque instead of corumq. So i suppose it was an printerror.

Is this a correct translation ?

"De first castle of that place has been built by the Huns and their leader Gelmelius, as it is said."

Piet
 

SaepePecca

New Member
pietvandeun dixit:
Hi,

I went looking for another edition of the book and their was eorumque instead of corumq. So i suppose it was an printerror.

Is this a correct translation ?

"De first castle of that place has been built by the Huns and their leader Gelmelius, as it is said."

Piet
That is a possible translation, but it seems odd to me. Gelmelius does not sound like a Hun name (but I'm no expert on Huns). And by the 17th century I think Duce (especially as it is capitalized) was often a specific title, which makes me think of a European. What book is this from? We have the words sorted out, we just need a little contextual hint to snap them into proper order.
 

Jason210

New Member
The thing that puzzles me with Latin is the word order, and the last word "perhibetur"

I mean look at this:

"Arx prima loci ab Hunnis eorumque Duce Gelmelio structa perhibetur"

Fortress/ first / of the place / from / ?Hunnas / and their / commander /Gelmelio/ having been built /is presented

That "structa" was also tricky. It appears to be a perfect participle of 3rd Dec. "Struo", (to build) which would be translated as "having been built"

It's like it's almost saying "The first castle of the place, having been built by the huns and their leader Gelmelio, is presented".

I'm sure I'm wrong, but I'm keen to understand this sentence.
 

pietvandeun

New Member
It is from "Antverpiae Antiquitates et opidorum, municiporum, pagorum, dominiuorum, quaesub ea. " written by Grammaye in 1610. This sentence is from a chapter about the history of Hoogstraten, a town in the province of Antwerp in Belgium. The castle still names "Castle of Gelmel".

The author has written this down as the people of that town told him that the castle was built bij Gelmel the Hun. Soo it is some kind of a legend, oral history ... . I also assume Gelmel is not a Hun but people thougt so in de 17th century. Following the historybooks, Gelmel was probably the first known nobel family in that castle, but they had no special title, only in the 16 century Hoogstraten became a count and in the 18th century Hoogstraten became a duke.

The next and previous sentences in that chapter have nothing to do with this sentence
 

SaepePecca

New Member
pietvandeun dixit:
It is from "Antverpiae Antiquitates et opidorum, municiporum, pagorum, dominiuorum, quaesub ea. " written by Grammaye in 1610. This sentence is from a chapter about the history of Hoogstraten, a town in the province of Antwerp in Belgium. The castle still names "Castle of Gelmel".

The author has written this down as the people of that town told him that the castle was built bij Gelmel the Hun. Soo it is some kind of a legend, oral history ... . I also assume Gelmel is not a Hun but people thougt so in de 17th century. Following the historybooks, Gelmel was probably the first known nobel family in that castle, but they had no special title, only in the 16 century Hoogstraten became a count and in the 18th century Hoogstraten became a duke.
Well, in that case I think your translation makes perfect sense :) That is interesting about Gelmelius the "Hun." I've heard that some European groups were called Huns long after the real Huns invaded but that's the first I've seen of it. It sounds like fascinating work you are doing. Is it part of a research project?

I wish I were in Europe, to be surrounded by so much history.
 

Iynx

Consularis
The corumq had me stumped, so for once I was keeping quiet. Make it eorumque and I think it means:

The first fortress in the place was, they say, built by the Huns, and their military leader Gelmel(ius).
 

pietvandeun

New Member
For who is interested: I`m researching the history of Hoogstraten, a town in Belgium. One of things I`m dealing with now is an old legend concerning the castle and his builder Gelmel.

If someone is interested in translating this last sentence:

Gelmel autem esse Arcem Hoogstratanam in Hoogstrato, ex tumulo veteri docui.

Thx

Piet
 

Jason210

New Member
Iynx dixit:
The corumq had me stumped, so for once I was keeping quiet. Make it eorumque and I think it means:

The first fortress in the place was, they say, built by the Huns, and their military leader Gelmel(ius).
Ah. Thanks. So "Structa" what from of the verb is that?
 

Jason210

New Member
pietvandeun dixit:
If someone is interested in translating this last sentence:

Gelmel autem esse Arcem Hoogstratanam in Hoogstrato, ex tumulo veteri docui.

Thx

Piet
Sounds like really interesting work you're doing.

That last bit does seem simple enough, but makes no sense to me:

ex tumulo verteri = "out of an old mound I have taught".

J
 

pietvandeun

New Member
Does this seams correct ?

But I've learned that Gelmel is the castle of Hoogstraten in Hoogstraten, on an old burial hill (tumulus: hill or place where people were burried)

Piet
 

Jason210

New Member
pietvandeun dixit:
Does this seams correct ?

But I've learned that Gelmel is the castle of Hoogstraten in Hoogstraten, on an old burial hill (tumulus: hill or place where people were burried)

Piet
It certainly makes sense.

But the verb docere -means to teach, not learn. It's 1st person present, active voice. "I taught", or "I have taught". May be the verb was used differently in that period?
 

Iynx

Consularis
Ah. Thanks. So "Structa" what from of the verb is that?
Structus, -a, -um is the perfect participle of struo.

This is, I think, one of the many instances in Latin in which a native Anglophone tends to feel that something is missing-- specifically some form of sum.

If we imagine an omitted esse after struo we then have

Arx prima loci ab Hunnis eorumque Duce Gelmelio structa (esse) perhibetur =

Fortress first of-the-place by Huns and-by-the-of-them the-military-leader Gelmel(ius) built (to be) is-said.

Whence the translation that I offered. If there's a technical name for this construction I don't know it.
 

pietvandeun

New Member
Docere sometimes takes an accusative + infinitive. But I still can't make this out as it stands. Could that last word possible be docuit, Piet?[/quote]

It is written without the -t-.
 

Jason210

New Member
There is always the possibility that it's typo, or that the writer made a mistake with that verb...

I'm getting into this story....sounds like a fun book!
 
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