Augustinus

[Katarina]

Hi!

I am working on a excerpt of Augustin's Confessions and this sentence is puzzeling me:

Iam vero refractum et quietum cum opportunum viderat, rationem facti sui reddebat, si forte ille inconsideratius commotus fuerat. (Confessions 9.9)

Especially the first part of sentence. Probably I can't translate iam as ''as soon as'', can I? And then refractum et quietum, why is this in accusative? Could it be like this: iam vero cum viderat eum refractum et quietum esse et (viderat) tempum? opportunum esse, rationem ... ?

 

[Pacifica]

Refractum, quietum and opportunum all refer to the implied eum.

Iam is more like "now" than "as soon as".

Literally it is something like "now being checked (in his anger) and calm, when she had seen him in a suitable disposition", but you know that "being checked and calm" refers to him and not her, because of the gender and case. For a more fluid translation I would turn it into something like "Now when he was calm, with his anger in check, and she saw that he was in a suitable disposition..."

By the way, there's no such form as *tempum. Tempus declines as third declension, tempus, temporis, and is neuter so the accusative is tempus.

 

[Katarina]

So I could rephrase it like this:

Iam vero cum [eum] refractum et quietum [et] opportunum viderat ... ?

 

[Pacifica]

Hm, almost, but the nuance is a little different. In the original, opportunum is what truly goes with viderat, while refractum et quietum is more of a background, the reason why he was seen as opportunus. I guess it's a bit like cum eum, quoniam refractus et quietus erat, opportunum viderat, though this wording isn't really as good as the original.

 

[Pacifica]

Or maybe it would be better explained like this:

It isn't "she saw that he was 1) checked, 2) calm, 3) suitably disposed", but "with him being 1) checked and 2) calm, she saw that he was suitably disposed".

 

[Katarina]

I understand the point now, thank you.

What I have to do is to prepare these passages for students who learn latin for first or second year. So I need to give them with the text a small dictionary and some hints so that they will be able to translate it with their knowledge. I have no idea how to do this with that sentence. Do you have any suggestion?

 

[Pacifica]

Oh my, I'm not sure. Do you think that, at their level, they would understand an explanation along the lines of "refractum et quietum is a circumstantial phrase, much as an ablative absolute would be, except that, since it refers to the direct object, it must agree with it in the accusative. The phrase denotes the state of the direct object at the time of the action of viderat: "[with him being] checked and calm, she saw (lit. "had seen") him suitably disposed?"

 

[Katarina]

Well the problem is that in Slovenian we can't say ''with him being'', we must say something like: when he was checked and calm ... Maybe I will just write them translation of this first part of the sentence. Thank you for your help!

 

[Pacifica]

Well the problem is that in Slovenian we can't say ''with him being'', we must say something like: when he was checked and calm ...

I see, so you would have to use two whens, "when he was checked and calm, when she had seen..." and you think that might be confusing? I'm sorry that I don't know any Slovenian and therefore can't be of much help when it comes to Latin or English constructions not fitting into Slovenian, so to speak.

 

[Katarina]

I see, so you would have to use two whens, "when he was checked and calm, when she had seen..." and you think that might be confusing? I'm sorry that I don't know any Slovenian and therefore can't be of much help when it comes to Latin or English constructions not fitting into Slovenian, so to speak.

Yes, I think it would be too much for them on their level. Not much people know Slovenian. Though you helped me to understand it better.

 

[Katarina]

Denique cum matronae multae, quarum viri mansuetiores erant, plagarum vestigia etiam dehonestata facie gererent, inter amica conloquia illae arguebant maritorum vitam, haec earum linguam, veluti per iocum graviter admonens, ex quo illas tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur recitari audissent, tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent deputare debuisse; proinde memores condicionis superbire adversus dominos non oportere.

What is ex quo reffering to?

 

[Katarina]

Actually I can't put together all of this part:

ex quo illas tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur recitari audissent, tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent deputare debuisse;

I assume there is an AcI after admonens; I am not quite sure how all this is put together.
ex quo?? illas audissent recitari tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur deputare debuisse tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent
that was my guessing with logic but gramatically it doesn't pass. Please help!

 

[Pacifica]

Denique cum matronae multae, quarum viri mansuetiores erant, plagarum vestigia etiam dehonestata facie gererent, inter amica conloquia illae arguebant maritorum vitam, haec earum linguam, veluti per iocum graviter admonens, ex quo illas tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur recitari audissent, tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent deputare debuisse; proinde memores condicionis superbire adversus dominos non oportere.

What is ex quo reffering to?

It means "from the time when".

Actually I can't put together all of this part:

ex quo illas tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur recitari audissent, tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent deputare debuisse;

I assume there is an AcI after admonens; I am not quite sure how all this is put together.
ex quo?? illas audissent recitari tabulas quae matrimoniales vocantur deputare debuisse tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent
that was my guessing with logic but gramatically it doesn't pass. Please help!

The AcI depending on admonens is deputare debuisse tamquam instrumenta quibus ancillae factae essent. The implied subject of this is the women, and the implied object is the tables: admonens... illas (feminas) deputare debuisse eas (tabulas) tamquam instrumenta...

 

[Katarina]

Pacifica, I admire you and your knowledge. Thank you!

 

[Pacifica]

You're welcome.

 

[Katarina]

Meminerit sane in ipsis inimicis latere cives futuros, ne infructuosum vel apud ipsos putet, quod, donec perveniat ad confessos, portat infensos; sicut ex illorum numero etiam Dei civitas habet secum, quamdiu peregrinatur in mundo, conexos communione sacramentorum, nec secum futuros in aeterna sorte sanctorum, qui partim in occulto, partim in aperto sunt, qui etiam cum ipsis inimicis adversus Deum, cuius sacramentum gerunt, murmurare non dubitant, modo cum illis theatra, modo ecclesias nobiscum replentes.
De Civitate Dei 1.35

I am wondering, is this futuros part of AcI, dependant on meminerit?

 

[Pacifica]

No. It's direct object of habet, like conexos.

 

[Katarina]

No. It's direct object of habet, like conexos.

That was what I was first thinking about but then I can't imagine what would futuros mean ...

 

[Pacifica]

Literally "going to be".

 

[Katarina]

Literally "going to be".

Sure, I know that futurus in the ptcp. fut. of verb esse.
But in this sentence: nec secum (habet) futuros ... And it won't have by itself ... the one's who are going to be???