Carpe Diem (Horace Odes 1-11) turning into a song

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Heus!

This year I started working on one choral song "Aetas" ("Time"), for bachelor exam in composition. And I decided to take "Carpe Diem" as a basis for lyrics. Music style is somewhere near modern opera (written for two part choir). I admire this poem (Ode) and I want it to fit to the melody more or less, because it feels like they (melody and text) are meant to be or something. Writing song based on latin is challenging. Probably because it is a fairly unknown language to me. And I want to do it right.
Feel free to comment, I would really appreciate any advice.

The original is following.... I read that "Carpe Diem" is probably misinterpreted in its translation. But here it is not so important, since this phrase is not part of the lyrics.
Carpe Diem

Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas, quem mihi, quem tibi finem di dederint, Leuconoe, nec Babylonios temptaris numeros. ut melius, quidquid erit, pati. seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Iuppiter ultimam, quae nunc oppositis debilitat pumicibus mare Tyrrhenum. Sapias, vina liques et spatio brevi spem longam reseces. dum loquimur, fugerit invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero. Horace, Odes 1.11 Not comfortable with analysing poetry? Don’t know what sort of thing to look for? Don’t see what the point of it all is? Well, I’m here to help! On this page I’ll be pulling… classicalstudies.support

Here is the "reconstructed" poem for the composition. Now it fits the melody perfectly. But I wonder if it is correct. If it makes sense. And I have huge doubts about that!

Aetas (time)

Tu ne quaesieris (Do not ask)
Finem di dederint (what end Gods will give) - the word “WHAT/which” seems to be missing
Dum loquitur (even while we are speaking)
fugerit aetas (the time is flyinng/ has fled)
Finem di ne dederint (the end Gods won’t give)
quaesieris (asking)
Seu plurais hjemes seu tribuit lupiter ultimam (Perhaps Jove(Jupiter) has many winters yet to give, or this our last)

 

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Finem di dederint (what end Gods will give) - the word “WHAT/which” seems to be missing

Yes. It has to be quem finem.
dederint here means "which end Gods have given", though.

Dum loquitur (even while we are speaking)

loquimur.

fugerit aetas (the time is flyinng/ has fled)

It's literally "time will have fled."

Finem di ne dederint (the end Gods won’t give)

"Gods won't give the end" would be
finem di non dabunt

quaesieris (asking)

That doesn't make sense as a single word, and it doesn't mean "asking" ... I'm not sure what you mean by "asking". Technically, the translation for it as a present participle would be quaerens.

Seu plurais hjemes seu tribuit lupiter ultimam (Perhaps Jove(Jupiter) has many winters yet to give, or this our last)

The text is probably plures hiemes
It does not mean "yet to give", though, but "has given many winters".

(or pluris ... the spelling with the i is more poetical)

 

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Yes. It has to be quem finem.
dederint here means "which end Gods have given", though.

Yes it makes sense! But what if I want to say "which end Gods will give" in a future time?
Instead of "Quem finem Di Dederint " can I say "Quem fine Di Dabunt"? "Dederint" is more like a subjunctive here, and "Dabunt" is indicative. But when I tried to find a subjunctive form of "give" in future form, I found nothing. Not sure if I can use "Dabunt" instead in this sentence. (Like you wrote with "Finem di non dabunt".

loquimur.

It's literally "time will have fled."

Thanks for correction, I think time will have fled works fine for me!

That doesn't make sense as a single word, and it doesn't mean "asking" ... I'm not sure what you mean by "asking". Technically, the translation for it as a present participle would be quaerens.

I meant here "Asking", as "I am asking" or "I wonder", more of a thought like phrase. It can also be as "You are asking" or "you wonder". As it starts with "tu ne quaesieris", so I just extracted one word. But in latin language when you extract one word, you often extract the whole meaning with it

The text is probably plures hiemes
It does not mean "yet to give", though, but "has given many winters".

Right! There are so many different translations out there, easy to get disoriented. But thank you for correcting that one too!

 

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Why did you quote your own message?

 

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Why did you quote your own message?

Idk, I tried to quote your message, but it all got quoted instead.

 

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Idk, I tried to quote your message, but it all got quoted instead.

Can you take the outer [ quote ] tags off? It would make it easier to reply.

 

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Can you take the outer [ quote ] tags off? It would make it easier to reply.

Ok, how about now?

Yes. It has to be quem finem.
dederint here means "which end Gods have given", though.

Yes it makes sense! But what if I want to say "which end Gods will give" in a future time?
Instead of "Quem finem Di Dederint " can I say "Quem fine Di Dabunt"? "Dederint" is more like a subjunctive here, and "Dabunt" is indicative. But when I tried to find a subjunctive form of "give" in future form, I found nothing. Not sure if I can use "Dabunt" instead in this sentence. (Like you wrote with "Finem di non dabunt".

loquimur.

It's literally "time will have fled."

Thanks for correction, I think time will have fled works fine for me!

That doesn't make sense as a single word, and it doesn't mean "asking" ... I'm not sure what you mean by "asking". Technically, the translation for it as a present participle would be quaerens.

I meant here "Asking", as "I am asking" or "I wonder", more of a thought like phrase. It can also be as "You are asking" or "you wonder". As it starts with "tu ne quaesieris", so I just extracted one word. But in latin language when you extract one word, you often extract the whole meaning with it

The text is probably plures hiemes
It does not mean "yet to give", though, but "has given many winters".

Right! There are so many different translations out there, easy to get disoriented. But thank you for correcting that one too!

 

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Yes it makes sense! But what if I want to say "which end Gods will give" in a future time?

quem finem di daturi sint.

Instead of "Quem finem Di Dederint " can I say "Quem fine Di Dabunt"?

No. It is an indirect question, so it has to be in the subjunctive.

As a stand-alone question, quem finem di dabunt? would work, though.

I meant here "Asking", as "I am asking" or "I wonder", more of a thought like phrase.

That would be quaero.

It can also be as "You are asking" or "you wonder".

That would be quaeris.

As it starts with "tu ne quaesieris", so I just extracted one word. But in latin language when you extract one word, you often extract the whole meaning with it

tu ne quaesieris is a negated command, for which you use the perfect subjunctive. It doesn't really work without the ne, though (or the meaning changes completely)

 

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I suppose quaesieris alone could be taken as "you might ask."

 

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quem finem di daturi sint.



No. It is an indirect question, so it has to be in the subjunctive.



That would be quaero.



That would be quaeris.



tu ne quaesieris is a negated command, for which you use the perfect subjunctive. It doesn't really work without the ne, though (or the meaning changes completely)

Gratias tibi ago. I have so much respect for people who have reached this high level of knowledge. Latin language is so underrated and complicated. Happy to being able to learn it step by step! Scientia, aere perennius!

 

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Scientia, aere perennius!

You seem to like Horace, but to struggle with Latin. You should just post your revised text here for people to have a look at it again. I remember that earlier this year, a German band tried to make money off the Corona crisis by publishing a song in Latin, but even though it consisted of only 3 lines, it was ridiculously bad Latin.

Anyway, in aere perennius, the perennius originally is neuter because it agrees with monumentum. If you want it to agree with scientia, it would be scientia aere perennior.

 

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You seem to like Horace, but to struggle with Latin. You should just post your revised text here for people to have a look at it again. I remember that earlier this year, a German band tried to make money off the Corona crisis by publishing a song in Latin, but even though it consisted of only 3 lines, it was ridiculously bad Latin.

That's something I would like to avoid. The reason some people use latin language freely in songs without taking grammar and details into consideration is maybe because they think Latin language has died out, and "the masses" will not notice anything. Which is true, majority will not notice anything. But if you make art, and want to be taken seriously, you have to pay respect to the language you are cooperating with in your compositions. Which is disturbingly time consuming, but definitely worth it in a long run.
I was also thinking, since you are helping me with editing, would be fair to credit your name as "lyric editor" in the performance and music sheet. Tried to send you a private message, but it doesn't seem to work on this web sight.
Scientia aere perennior!

I am going to post the final edited versjon soon today.

 

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Tried to send you a private message, but it doesn't seem to work on this web sight.

I think you need a minimum number of messages in order to gain the privilege of sending PMs ... like 15 or 25.

 

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Here is the updated version (With the help of Bitmap). First verse. Some of the "phrases" do not belong to the poem. But I do hope they fit together nonetheless and bear the same concept.

Aetas (Time)

Tu ne quaesieris (do not ask)
Scire nefas (it’s forbidden knowledge)
Dum loquimur (even while we are speaking)
Fugerit invida Aetas (envious time will have fled)
Sapias (be truthful ....missing word "towards/to" memory of time) Eximet aevo (memory of time)
Memento (do remember)

Seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Luppiter Ultimam (Perhaps Jove(Jupiter) has given many winters, or this our last) It’s interesting though why it’s written “perhaps” with perfect tense and not "yet to give" like other translations probably mistakenly suggest? If the winters have already "been given", why is there “seu” as perhaps, which forms a quite unstable suggestion?

Carpe Diem (pluck the day)
Memento (do remember)

 

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Sapias (be truthful ....missing word "towards/to" memory of time) Eximet aevo (memory of time)

"sapias" means "be wise", but "eximet aevo" doesn't mean "memory of time" ... I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here ...

Seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Luppiter Ultimam (Perhaps Jove(Jupiter) has given many winters, or this our last) It’s interesting though why it’s written “perhaps” with perfect tense and not "yet to give" like other translations probably mistakenly suggest? If the winters have already "been given", why is there “seu” as perhaps, which forms a quite unstable suggestion?

Spelling: Iuppiter

seu ... seu ... means "be it that ..., or be it that ...".
A close translation would be "be it that Jove has given us more winters, or be it that he has given us the last". The idea is that the gods do not determine your fate on a whim or on a daily basis. Your fate, i.e. when you die, was determined when you were born, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's why it's in the perfect tense. However, there's no way you yourself can know what your fate is; hence the uncertainty expressed by "seu ... seu"

 

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"sapias" means "be wise", but "eximet aevo" doesn't mean "memory of time" ... I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here ...

What are the most accurate sources to surf translations and definitions of latin words and phrases? I see that most of translations and interpretations I find are totally misleading... For example "nulla dies umquam memori vos eximet aevo" is translated as "No day shall erase you from the memory of time". So exempt aevo is not "memory of time" (Aeneid, IX)? Or are all those translations not literal, but poetical? Or how does it work?

The same goes with "Sapias" , I found two translations, one is "be truthful" another is "smart".
So what I was trying to say here is "be truthful to the memory of time". By it I mean "respect time" by not trying to live in the future, which is nonexistent, but which is today. I could have just quoted "quam minimum credula postero", but it doesn't fit the melody. so I am trying to make it shorter, adding a phrase that would be slightly related at the least.

Spelling: Iuppiter
seu ... seu ... means "be it that ..., or be it that ...".
A close translation would be "be it that Jove has given us more winters, or be it that he has given us the last". The idea is that the gods do not determine your fate on a whim or on a daily basis. Your fate, i.e. when you die, was determined when you were born, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's why it's in the perfect tense. However, there's no way you yourself can know what your fate is; hence the uncertainty expressed by "seu ... seu"

Benigne, now I do understand.

 

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What are the most accurate sources to surf translations and definitions of latin words and phrases? I see that most of translations and interpretations I find are totally misleading... For example "nulla dies umquam memori vos eximet aevo" is translated as "No day shall erase you from the memory of time". So exempt aevo is not "memory of time" (Aeneid, IX)? Or are all those translations not literal, but poetical? Or how does it work?

Of course translations are not literal. You always have to do some rephrasing to make a translation work in the target language. If you translated that Vergil quote word by word, you would get "No day ever memorable you will delete from time".

The same goes with "Sapias" , I found two translations, one is "be truthful" another is "smart".

Most words have more than one meaning or exist on a certain spectrum. But being smart is a better translation than being truthful ... especially in the context of that poem.

So what I was trying to say here is "be truthful to the memory of time". By it I mean "respect time" by not trying to live in the future, which is nonexistent, but which is today. I could have just quoted "quam minimum credula postero", but it doesn't fit the melody. so I am trying to make it shorter, adding a phrase that would be slightly related at the least.

If you like that phrase phrase and want a shorter version of it, you could write
diei ne crede postero.
or
diei ne credideris postero.

("Do not trust the next day.")
You can also shuffle around the words in whichever way you like ... ne should just precede crede/credideris.

 

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Of course translations are not literal. You always have to do some rephrasing to make a translation work in the target language. If you translated that Vergil quote word by word, you would get "No day ever memorable you will delete from time".
Most words have more than one meaning or exist on a certain spectrum. But being smart is a better translation than being truthful ... especially in the context of that poem.
If you like that phrase phrase and want a shorter version of it, you could write
diei ne crede postero.
or
diei ne credideris postero.
("Do not trust the next day.")
You can also shuffle around the words in whichever way you like ... ne should just precede crede/credideris.

Benigne!

So here're the 10000000000 times edited lyrics I do hope with all my conscientia that Bitmap and other members approve.... If not let me know.

Aetas (Time)

Tu ne quaesieris (do not ask)
Scire nefas (it’s forbidden knowledge)
Dum loquimur (even while we are speaking)
Fugerit invida Aetas (envious time will have fled)
diei ne crede postero. (Do not trust the next day)
Memento (do remember)

Seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit luppiter ultimam (Perhaps Jove(Jupiter) has given many winters, or this is our last one)

Carpe Diem (pluck the day)
Memento (do remember)

 

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It seems fine to me.

 

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It seems fine to me.

Hooray! Gratias ago tibi valde!
As I'm still not allowed to send messages, could you pm me with the name I will list in the credits for lyrics editor on the score? You can also post it here if you are more comfortable with that!