Complete manuscript

Karponios

New Member
Hello esteemed scholars,

I signed up to pose a Herculean task.

I managed to unearth one of my earlier ancestors' thesis in Latin, and to my utter dismay found out that it has never been translated into any other language. The language of academia back in the day was -- as you well know -- Latin, and the (rather short, only 8 short pages) thesis was merely archived, never translated.

There are surely knowledgeable masters of the Latin glossa on here that can aid me in providing, if not a direct translation (of even a little part), at least some pointers in the right directions.

The manuscript in question can be found by clicking the below link:
http://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/51273/fv01791.pdf?sequence=1

If anyone of the members here could provide assistance with this, I would be very grateful.

Thank you.

- Karponios
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
It doesn't look like very hard Latin.
You speak Finnish (and maybe Swedish if you are still connected with Abo), and good English. Do you have other languages also?
You could probably learn enough Latin grammar in a month to make a stab at it line by line on your own with the help of the Perseus online dictionary, or a an old Lewis and Short dictionary bought online and a simple enough Latin grammar.
Then go through it line by line and post up your attempts here for help, and you'll have it done in no time. It would be a marvelous testament to family heritage to do that; old Jacobus Arndt Carp the educator would be proud of you, no doubt; you'll show your translation to your grandkids the way you look at Jakob's book now; and you'd learn Latin into the bargain.
And all done before the Summer even really gets going.
 

Karponios

New Member
Thankee, Limetrees. I might take a brave stab at it, sure. My first language is Swedish, though I consider myself completely trilingual, English being the third in addition to Finnish. I do speak some German and of course the other scandinavian languages (they are essentially only dialects in any case), but my sagacity in re Romance languages is nil (I only possess the most rudimentary Spanish awareness). Peradventure counter-intuitively I do not have a great head for languages, though. Picking up a language takes me decades these days.

What on Earth? I began clumsily translating phrases and I immediately stumble upon a word that no dictionary seems to recognize: adsveti.

Cives autem virtutibus instructi ornatique non sunt sperandi, nifi a teneris, ut dicitur, ungviculis praeceptis earum imbuantur, atque iisdem exercendis fiant adsveti; ea namque est natura hominis, ut qualis in infantia evaserit, talis etiam per reliquum vitae spatium plerumque maneat.

I have no clue what the word even means. (Nor the phrase, but that's another story.)

Help would be appreciated.
 

Victus

Member
... May be a typo, because it reminds me a lot of "Advesti"
 

Imber Ranae

Ranunculus Iracundus
What on Earth? I began clumsily translating phrases and I immediately stumble upon a word that no dictionary seems to recognize: adsveti.

Cives autem virtutibus instructi ornatique non sunt sperandi, nifi a teneris, ut dicitur, ungviculis praeceptis earum imbuantur, atque iisdem exercendis fiant adsveti; ea namque est natura hominis, ut qualis in infantia evaserit, talis etiam per reliquum vitae spatium plerumque maneat.

I have no clue what the word even means. (Nor the phrase, but that's another story.)

Help would be appreciated.

...atque iisdem exercendis fiant adsueti.
= "...and [they] be made accustomed to practicing these same [virtues]."
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
The manuscript in question can be found by clicking the below link:
http://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/51273/fv01791.pdf?sequence=1
Here's a translation for the first chapter:

The title of the book is "Aphorisms concerning the education of the youth in schools".

Aphor. 1

There is no doubt that the happiness of a state should be estimated by the virtue of its citizens. And one cannot hope there will be citizens equipped and ornated with virtues if they are not imbued with precepts about them from earliest infancy, and do not become accustomed to them by exercising these same virtues; for the nature of man is such that it usually remains throughout the rest of one's lifetime such as it emerges in childhood. The stain of sin with which we are all infected is more easily restrained during the years of childhood while it doesn't have the power to burst out into vices, so that it may not have as great a power on us as if nature, which is inclined to vices, inveterated in the practice of them; for then we can hardly, and at least with a pretty great difficulty, be led to enter the path of virtue. As a tree when it is still immature and standing in the form of a shoot, is easily bent and a different form given to it, so is man too, if he is given precepts and incentives for virtue right from childhood, most easily moved to observe them. If, on the other hand, his care and education is neglected when he has that age, there is hardly any experience suggesting that he may end up becoming a good citizen, not to say a good man. Therefore we think no one will deny that the education of the youth in a state is a good thing. But since many parents are found who, either not able enough or hindered by the charges of their works, cannot educate their children so that they may observe the precepts of virtue in life and be adorned with as great a knowledge of sciences as is necessary for them to spend a happy life, it is necessary that institutions be active, of the kind that may remedy this misfortune.

Maybe I'll do some more in the coming days.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
I thought he (she) was going to try to do it for him(her)self.

It's not even vaguely hard for you, PP. You should be off doing new editions of earliest Roman drama by now.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I thought he (she) was going to try to do it for him(her)self.
The first post seemed to me to suggest that it was someone not knowing Latin asking for a translation...
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
btw, I read a great book just recently, Surviving Greek Drama, on how what little we have of Greek drama got this far, thanks to scholars and researchers of various types: PP, that's the kind of thing where you need to be getting stuck in! They need you! And Neo-Latin editions desperately need good people, i.e. you!
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Haha, thanks, Limetrees.
 

Victus

Member
What does advesti mean?
Umm... You're gonna think I'm stupid. Heh... well... Advesti was a advertising magazine that sold here in Brazil. I always thought the word meant something in latin, but apparently not. Sorry.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
The first post seemed to me to suggest that it was someone not knowing Latin asking for a translation...
It was, but I hope that he'll do it himself, and he should be well able, or at least give it a fair old bash!

So, Karponois, let this first chapter be something you can use to help see how the Latin works: then try the second chapter on your own.

And you, PP, will you ever go and start doing the hard stuff that normal people like us just can't do. Contact some Latin prof at a really good university in Belgium of France (or wherever you want to go), ask them for the hardest thing they have to translate or edit and let that be a test to see if they'll fund you a PhD on a really difficult (Neo-?)Latin author.
Or they might get you to sit their MA exams, or something: it will be too easy for you! If they are good, they won't care what you have or haven't done already. Seriously. They might at worst make you officially sign up for classes which you never have to attend.
You don't even have to leave the house - and you can still even check in here every now and then!
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
It was, but I hope that he'll do it himself, and he should be well able, or at least give it a fair old bash!

So, Karponois, let this first chapter be something you can use to help see how the Latin works: then try the second chapter on your own.
I think you should calm down a little: if he doesn't know any Latin today, unless he's a damn genius, he's not gonna be able to translate the next chapter tomorrow (he'll first have to learn a few declensions and conjugations, among other things...). :D
And you, PP, will you ever go and start doing the hard stuff that normal people like us just can't do. Contact some Latin prof at a really good university in Belgium of France (or wherever you want to go), ask them for the hardest thing they have to translate or edit and let that be a test to see if they'll fund you a PhD on a really difficult (Neo-?)Latin author.
Or they might get you to sit their MA exams, or something: it will be too easy for you! If they are good, they won't care what you have or haven't done already. Seriously. They might at worst make you officially sign up for classes which you never have to attend.
You don't even have to leave the house - and you can still even check in here every now and then!
Ah, I wish it were that simple.
 

Tacitus Arctous

Active Member
By the way you all here: if someone asks to translate long texts, you ought to ask compensation. Understanding Latin is a rare gift and there is nothing wrong to gain from it.
Those were the words of our illustrious docent Reijo Pitkäranta, who edits Nuntii Latini with professor emeritus Tuomo Pekkanen.
 

Karponios

New Member
Thank you very much, Pacis Puella. Indeed you are correct, I know Latin not at all. It took me quite a while to get past 'nullum est dubium'. I will try to translate some of the other parts. I have no idea what the words mean, but I will try. Thank you so much.
 

limetrees

Civis Illustris
I think you should calm down a little: if he doesn't know any Latin today, unless he's a damn genius, he's not gonna be able to translate the next chapter tomorrow (he'll first have to learn a few declensions and conjugations, among other things...). :D
Ah, I wish it were that simple.

1. That's what I told him, to go off and learn the grammar. It's not my idea that he just start translating right off the bat: but enthusiasm is a useful thing too.
Now, Karponios, go and learn some grammar you lazy sod!!

2. I'm not going to pry into your life, and maybe you have absolute reasons why you can't do it, but like I say, you don't even have to leave the house!
And what's more: we need smart people like you out there! I'm not even doing you a favour; I'm doing me a favour!

And this is valid for anyone, not you in particular: a problem often is that the best people underestimate what they can do. And so they let mediocre (and not even very nice, or witty!) wallies running the place and writing the books and teaching in the universities.
And, again to anyone interested, not just you, you'd be amazed what you can do if you ask the people already involved: some of them - the best ones -are actually sound.

Now, let me just put away my soapbox and go back to my own work.
 
Top