Destiny of Rome

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
Has anyone heard this before?
There seem to be a good number of false quantities in there. I'm not sure how "correct" the Latin is as I've only just discovered the clip and not yet worked out what's being said.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Seditiones populus Romanus facturus est ... (?) iactat multitudo quae etiam vos atque domos vestras, cognatosque familiasque pugnare potest.... ouch....
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Ok, I'll try little by little. I don't get every word:

Seditiones populus Romanus facturus est ... (?) iactat multitudo quae etiam vos atque domos vestras, cognatosque familiasque pugnare potest. Equidem nullum aliud consilium nisi mali vestri impediendi ... (?) caveto (or cavete?) vero plebem dolentem, quae subito patrem perdiderit atque ad arma capienda paratissima (sounds like paratissimae) sit. Ille qui tanta beneficia dederat iam occisus est. Etiam vobis aut perfugium quaere(re?), aut mortem timere necesse est. Vobis rusticae villae sunt.... (?) vos.... (?) Ego te, Brute, bene novi. Nec dubito (quin?) pro virtute in.... (?) tibi nihil sit.... (?) libertatem ita egeris... (?) vindicare neque ab... (?) volueris. Itaque sentio senatus consultum fiat ut et omnibus coniurationis principibus venia atque impunitas detur, et omnia acta Caesaris rata sint. Tu quidem qui (I hear "acta Cesara" ---> Caesaris?) abrogentur sentis, num quaesisti (sound like "quaesistis") quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset (?????) cuius ex auctoritate hunc honorem recepisses? Cuius ex munere magnificam domum in qua tanta convivia libenter apparares? Equidem aperte loquor, animum vestrum appello: nisi omnia acta Caesaris rata erunt, omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus. Quanam auctoritate, si ita sit, de republica, de civitate, de populo Romano statuatis? Crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras... (?) esse, cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit, quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat?

I see two mistakes: vos atque domos vestras etc. pugnare potest and quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset, which makes no sense, unless I just didn't hear it correctly.

I have some doubts about the idiomaticity of seditiones facere.

Then at a few places you hear a "s" or a "t" where there shouldn't be one or such things, but really the guy is speaking fast, you can understand his tongue may slip sometimes.

The rest of what I could understand looks ok to me.
 

Arca Defectionis

Civis Illustris
It sounds mighty cool... but the somewhat random jumping between classical and ecclesiastical pronunciation is really unnerving.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
I didn't notice he used the classical one at all...
 

Arca Defectionis

Civis Illustris
Well, for example, there were many notable hard g's in perfugium, gerere, egeris, etc. where ecclesiastical would have a soft g, and the h's are fully pronounced. The "gn" is neither classical nor ecclesiatical. Some of the -tio words are pronounced as /ti.o/ instead of /tsjo/, but perhaps that's just a mistake.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
You're right, I hadn't paid attention to the g's.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Missing parts as i hear them... He has a very Eastern Latin accent which I am not used to, and does a very good job with the intonation. From what I know of the show (rumors), some hard core latinists were involved in producing the speaches... maybe it was this crew


you can see a production shot at 00:56

Seditionis populus Romanus facturus est. murmurat enim inaeque iactat multitudo, quae etiam vos atque domos vestras, cognatosque familiasque pugnare potest. Equidem nullum aliud consilium nisi mali vestri impediendi teneo (it's just a slip of toung, vide "consilium tenere") cavete (because vos) vero plebem dolentem, quae subito patrem perdiderit atque ad arma capienda paratissima sit. Ille qui tanta beneficia dederat iam occisus est. Etiam vobis aut perfugium quaere, aut mortem timere necesse est. Vobis rusticae villae sunt qua si iam vos fugere, ut illae(c) sit. (so that death be there, not here) utile sit Ego te, Brute, bene novi. Nec dubito que/quae/quin, pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit, optativus (tu) libertatem ita egeris, ut hanc vindicare neque ab ill(o) abhorrere volueris. Itaque sentio senatus consultum fiat ut et omnibus coniurationis principibus venia atque impunitas detur, et omnia acta Caesaris rata sint. Tu quidem, quae acta Caesar(i)a abroge/antur, sentis?, num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset (vide magistraturm mandare), cuius ex auctoritate hunc honorem recepisses? Cuius ex munere magnificam domum in qua tanta convivia libenter apparares? Equidem aperte loquor, animum vestrum appello: nisi omnia acta Caesaris rata erunt, omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus. Quanam auctoritate, si ita sit, de republica, de civitate, de populo Romano statuatis? Crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras rei publicae reddendas esse, cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit, quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat?
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
I see two mistakes.
Assuming you and LCF have given faithful transcripts of the speech, I'd say there are more than two. The ambition to write in Ciceronian Latin shines through in every line, and nearly every line leaves me wondering what on earth the writer is trying to say.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Assuming you and LCF have given faithful transcripts of the speech, I'd say there are more than two. The ambition to write in Ciceronian Latin shines through in every line, and nearly every line leaves me wondering what on earth the writer is trying to say.

Bring up the things you find odd. We can examine closer. It's a good excerice in compositon many will benefit.
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
Bring up the things you find odd. We can examine closer.
Since I've already said that nearly all of it leaves me wondering what the writer is trying to say, it would be far more logical for those who find it largely meaningful to attempt a translation. We can then examine whether the Latin really can mean what the translation implies it means.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Here it is roughly... (forgiveing my own misspellings)
There are some grammar mistakes or maybe just toung slips of the actor. Ignoring those, most is pretty intelligible...

Seditionis/Seditionius/Seditiones* populus Romanus facturus est.
Romanan people will become mutanous.
murmurat enim inaeque/in aequo iactat multitudo,
For the great number complain and "scream bloddy Merry"/"create uproar",
quae etiam vos atque domos vestras, cognatosque familiasque pugnare potest.
who just as likely can go againts you, your homes, friend and families.
Equidem nullum aliud consilium nisi mali vestri impediendi (causa) teneo
Indeed I hold this counsil for no reasen other then to prevent the crap that's to come to you.
cavete vero plebem dolentem, quae subito patrem perdiderit atque ad arma capienda paratissima sit.
Beware of the greving mob who suddently has lost a father, and is ready to take arms against you.
Ille qui tanta beneficia dederat iam occisus est.
And he who gave so much is now dead.
Etiam vobis aut perfugium quaere, aut mortem timere necesse est.
And now you need to either look for a way to flee or piss your pants out of fear for death
Vobis rusticae villae sunt *qua si iam vos fugere, ut utile sit.
You have farms at the coutry, to which if you run it would be useful to you.
Ego te, Brute, bene novi.
I know you well Brutus
*Nec dubito que/quae/quin, pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit
*I don't doubt that for the virtue, in which would you have nothing
optativus (tu) libertatem ita egeris
You who wanted libery was acting in such a way,
ut hanc vindicare neque ab ill(o) abhorrere volueris.
that you wanted liberate and not to get get rid of Caesar.
Itaque sentio senatus consultum fiat ut et omnibus coniurationis principibus
And so I feel that the judgemnt of the senat will be so that to all the starters of this conspiracy,
venia atque impunitas detur
forgivness will be given,
et omnia acta Caesaris rata sint
and let all the acts of Caesar be!
Tu quidem, quae acta Caesar(i)a abroge/antur, sentis?,
Which acts of Caesar do you think should be abolsihed?
num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset
did you ask who brought you to this office?
cuius ex auctoritate hunc honorem recepisses?
by whose authoritthy you got this honors?
Cuius ex munere magnificam domum in qua tanta convivia libenter apparares?
From whose work did you get this houses where you throw parties?
Equidem aperte loquor,
Indeed I speak openly
animum vestrum appello
// I call apon your hearts? (I don't know his locution)
nisi omnia acta Caesaris rata erunt
if all of the acts of Caesar are not "made good on",
omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus.
we will loose it all... (I have some issue here with latin)
*Quanam auctoritate, si ita sit
de republica, de civitate, de populo Romano statuatis?
I don't have English here...
Crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani
More veterans gather every day...
a quibus terras rei publicae reddendas esse
quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat?
who of you will tell them that they must give back they lands etc...
cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit
I have an issue with Latin here
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Equidem nullum aliud consilium nisi mali vestri impediendi (causa) teneo
Indeed I hold this counsil for no reasen other then to prevent the crap that's to come to you.
No need for causa.
I have no other intention but that of preventing harm from happening to you (lit. that of preventing your harm).
Vobis rusticae villae sunt qua() si iam vos fugere, ut utile sit.
You have farms at the coutry, to which if you run it would be useful to you.
I can't make sense of the Latin as it is.
*Nec dubito que/quae/quin, pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit
I don't doubt that for the virtue, in which would you have nothing
You really need quin there. We hear qu(a)e but I think his tongue has just slipped.
optativus (tu) libertatem ita egeris
You who wanted libery was acting in such a way,
Optativus libertatem is wrong. Optativus doesn't mean "who wishes".
venia atque impunitas detur
forgivness will be given,
Forgiveness and impunity, to be precise.
Tu quidem, quae acta Caesar(i)a abroge/antur, sentis?,
Which acts of Caesar do you think should be abolsihed?
Maybe it sounds like quae and abrogantur, but the sense requires qui and abrogentur: you indeed, who want Caesar's acts to be revoked (have you wondered who etc)...
num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset
did you ask who brought you to this office?
This is definitely wrong. You'd need quis ad magistratim te mandasset or quis magistratum tibi mandasset.
omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus.we will loose it all... (I have some issue here with latin)
We will all lose most of what we have and our magistracy.
Quanam auctoritate, si ita sit
de republica, de civitate, de populo Romano statuatis?
I don't know have English here...
By what authority, if it were so, would you decide about the republic, about the state, about the people of Rome?
cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit
I have an issue with Latin here
since the acts of the one who offered them (the lands) are now revoked.
 

LCF

a.k.a. Lucifer
Equidem nullum aliud consilium nisi mali vestri impediendi (causa) teneo
No need for causa.
Yeah sure ok. it's not like I was giving a dot by dot translation. That's not the point here. The point here is that we look at latin.

No need for causa.
Vobis rusticae villae sunt qua* si iam vos fugere, ut utile sit.
I can't make sense of the Latin as it is.
Things to explore here for interest:
* fugere as a contruction in plural second.
* ut illae(c) sit is a possible read (illic, illiae)
* quasi iam fugere

Nec dubito que/quae/quin, pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit
I don't doubt that for the virtue, in which would you have nothing
You really need quin there. We hear qu(a)e but I think his tongue has just slipped.
Yeah sure re quin. "in qua tibi nihil sit" is an unfamiliar locution.

optativus (tu) libertatem ita egeris
You who wanted libery was acting in such a way,
Optativus libertatem is wrong. Optativus doesn't mean "who wishes".
No other sense you can give other then "he who wishes". This is definetly a made up locution. Nothing I could find other than in referense to grammatical form.
The defense for useage would derive from Optativus Modus... the wanting mood, the mood that wants...

Tu quidem, quae acta Caesar(i)a abroge/antur, sentis?,
Which acts of Caesar do you think should be abolsihed?
Maybe it sounds like quae and abrogantur, but the sense requires qui and abrogentur: you indeed, who want Caesar's acts to be revoked (have you wondered who etc)...
That's not the sense that I read. The sense that I read is this: Quae acta Caesaria abrogentur tu sentis?.

num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandassetdid you ask who brought you to this office?
This is definitely wrong. You'd need quis ad magistratim te mandasset or quis magistratum tibi mandasset.
I agree.
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
I may be doing the whole undertaking an injustice, because we don't know for sure what the speaker is saying, but I've not seen anything since my last post to cause me to revise my earlier opinion that this is incoherent and faulty Latin.

Just a few points that spring to mind, some of which have already been queried by others:
  • murmurat enim inaeque/in aequo iactat multitudo can't mean "For the multitude (great number) complain and create uproar". Inique iactat would mean something like "unfairly boasts", but how would that fit sense-wise with murmurat (grumbles), and the fact that the Roman people are going to raise seditions?
  • quae etiam vos atque domos vestras, cognatosque familiasque pugnare potest. What are the accusatives dependent on? Is this trying to say "which can fight against you, your homes etc? If it is, it is an unidiomatic use of pugnare.
  • Etiam vobis aut perfugium quaere, aut mortem timere necesse est. That's an odd use of etiam. quaere needs to be quaerere if vobis is not to be out of place.
  • Vobis rusticae villae sunt *qua si iam vos fugere, ut utile sit. This is impossible to make sense of.
  • Nec dubito quin, pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit optativus (tu) libertatem ita egeris ut hanc vindicare neque ab ill(o) abhorrere volueris. Ditto
  • Itaque sentio senatus consultum fiat. Sentio with a subordinate iussive? Is this done?
  • Tu quidem, quae acta Caesarea abroge/antur, sentis? Is this doing the same thing with sentio? Even if it is, and even if it were permissible, I can't make sense of it.
  • num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset doesn't and can't mean "did you ask who brought you to this office?"
  • omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus. That strikes me as very harsh Latin.Would it really have been a legitimate way of saying "We will all lose most of what we have and our magistracy/-ies"?
  • Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras rei publicae reddendas esse, cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit, quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat? This is a horrible tangle. What verb are we to supply with the presumed nominative Caesaris veterani? What verb of speaking or thinking is reddendas esse dependent on? Where does autem come in?
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Things to explore here for interest:
* fugere as a contruction in plural second.
* ut illae(c) sit is a possible read (illic, illiae)
* quasi iam fugere
I'll have to listen to the thing again.
Yeah sure re quin. "in qua tibi nihil sit" is an unfamiliar locution.
Yeah, and I'm not sure the whole pro virtute in qua tibi nihil sit makes much sense.
No other sense you can give other then "he who wishes". This is definetly a made up locution. Nothing I could find other than in referense to grammatical form.
The defense for useage would derive from Optativus Modus... the wanting mood, the mood that wants...
Yeah, you're right, "expressing a wish", I don't know if it's usual applied to a person, but it can make sense.
That's not the sense that I read. The sense that I read is this: Quae acta Caesaria abrogentur tu sentis?.
Look at the whole:

Tu quidem, quae acta Caesar(i)a abroge/antur, sentis?, num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset (vide magistraturm mandare), cuius ex auctoritate hunc honorem recepisses? Cuius ex munere magnificam domum in qua tanta convivia libenter apparares?

You, what acts of Caesar do you want to revoke? Have you wondered who gave you your magistracy, your house etc?

Tu quidem, qui acta Caesaris abrogentur sentis, num quaesisti quis ad magistratum tibi mandasset (vide magistraturm mandare), cuius ex auctoritate hunc honorem recepisses? Cuius ex munere magnificam domum in qua tanta convivia libenter apparares?

You, who want Caesar's acts to be revoked, have you wondered who gave you etc.?

The latter is more fitting.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Sentio with a subordinate iussive? Is this done?
You're right, I find no example.
omnes pleraque et magistratus perdemus. That strikes me as very harsh Latin.Would it really have been a legitimate way of saying "We will all lose most of what we have and our magistracy/-ies"?
I don't see what's wrong there personally.
Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras rei publicae reddendas esse, cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit, quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat?
What verb are we to supply with the presumed nominative Caesaris veterani?
Nothing to supply, it's there: crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras etc.
What verb of speaking or thinking is reddendas esse dependent on?
Dicere.
Where does autem come in?
Not sure about that.
 

Aurifex

Aedilis
Staff member
Nothing to supply, it's there: crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras etc.
Fine. Now please make sense of the complete sentence: crebriores in dies conveniunt Caesaris veterani, a quibus terras rei publicae reddendas esse, cum abrogata iam sint illius acta qui has donaverit, quis autem vestrum palam his dicere audeat.
 

Pacifica

grammaticissima
Staff member
Caesar's veterans arrive more numerous each day, but who of you would dare to tell them face to face that lands must be given back by them to the republic, since the acts of the man who offered them (these lands) have now been revoked.
 
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