dum ampliat etc.

[Pacifica]

Hello,

I am completely lost with the bolded clauses here. I just can't tell what the sequence of ideas is, how to order them. It's just thoroughly unclear to me, something doesn't seem to fit. Besides, there are two different versions (the first one is from my oldest book, the second one is how it is in the two others). It's a gloss concerning torcular in Revelation 19:15 Et de ore eius procedit gladius ex utraque parte acutus, ut in ipso percutiat gentes. Et ipse reget eas in virga ferrea: et ipse calcat torcular vini furoris irae Dei omnipotentis.

First version:

Torcular, id est mortem, quae ab irato deo primo homini peccanti illata est, resurgens destruxit. Vel torcular tribulatio, in qua positos sanctos calcat, dum ampliat, quam dominus ade peccanti intulit, furorem in propaginem eius extendit, sed fiunt vinum in cellario dei ponendum, quo positi, non erunt vinum furoris.

My current version, but which I'm not at all sure of:

The wine press. I.e. death, which was inflicted by God angry on the first sinning man, was destroyed by him when he rose again. Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints; while he increases the one which the Lord inflicted on Adam when he sinned, he extends his fury to his offspring; but they become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put in it, they shall not be a wine of fury.

Second version:

Torcular, id est mortem quae ab irato deo primo homini peccanti illata est resurgens destruxit. Vel torcular tribulatio, in qua* positos sanctos calcat, dum ampliat, quam deus iratus ade peccanti intulit, furiosus in propagine eius extendit, sed fiunt vinum in cellario dei ponendum, in quo positi non erunt vinum furoris.

The wine press. I.e. death, which was inflicted by God angry on the first sinning man, was destroyed by him when he rose again. Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while he increases the one which God angry inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and extended, furious, to his offspring; but they become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put in it, they shall not be a wine of fury.

*One of the versions actually has quam, scilicet in qua.

The second version makes a bit more sense, but... I really don't know about the first one.

The idea also came to my mind that the object of ampliat could be the saints, but I don't really see how it would make sense either.

Any help would be really appreciated.

 

[limetrees]

Ampliat has as object the saints

Torcular, id est mortem, quae ab irato deo primo homini peccanti illata est, resurgens destruxit. Vel torcular tribulatio, in qua positos sanctos calcat, dum ampliat, quam dominus ade peccanti intulit, furorem in propaginem eius extendit, sed fiunt vinum in cellario dei ponendum, quo positi, non erunt vinum furoris.


The wine press. I.e. death, which was inflicted by God angry on the first sinning man, was destroyed by him when he rose again. Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while he increases [them] just as the Lord inflicted [tribulation] on Adam when he sinned, [and] he extends his fury to his offspring; but they become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put in it, they shall not be a wine of fury.



Torcular, id est mortem quae ab irato deo primo homini peccanti illata est resurgens destruxit. Vel torcular tribulatio, in qua* positos sanctos calcat, dum ampliat, quam deus iratus ade peccanti intulit, furiosus in propagine eius extendit, sed fiunt vinum in cellario dei ponendum, in quo positi non erunt vinum furoris.

The wine press. I.e. death, which was inflicted by God angry on the first sinning man, was destroyed by him when he rose again. Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints as he increases [tehm] just as the angry God inflicted [tribulation] on Adam when he sinned, and extended [this], furious, to his offspring; but they become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put in it, they shall not be a wine of fury

The idea is that he both increases and punishes Adam and the saints, so that they are like the grapes.

 

[Pacifica]

Thanks, but where do you get "just as" from? Do you think quam is a mistake for tamquam?

Couldn't it be:

Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while increasing them, (tribulation) which the Lord inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and he extended his fury to his offspring...

Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while increasing them, (tribulation) which God angry inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and extended, furious, to his offspring...

It stills feels somewhat off, but...

Actually it first felt to me that tribulation had to be the object of ampliat because ampliat/extendit... it's similar, but I don't know.

 

[limetrees]

Maybe wrongly, I'm taking it as II.2 here
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=quam&la=la#Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=quam-contents

2. With ellipsis of corresp. tam: “homo non, quam isti sunt, gloriosus,” not so celebrated as those, Liv. 35, 49: “claris majoribus, quam vetustis,” rather than, Tac. A. 4, 61.—

Couldn't it be:

Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while increasing them, (tribulation) which the Lord inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and he extended his fury to his offspring...

Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while increasing them, (tribulation) which God angry inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and extended, furious, to his offspring...

It stills feels somewhat off, but...

Actually it first felt to me that tribulation had to be the object of ampliat because ampliat/extendit... it's similar, but I don't know.

Maybe, but the comparison of the saints (ie the good livers) with Adam makes more sense

 

[Pacifica]

Thanks. I'd already seen that in the sense "rather than" of the second example, but I think it's the first time I see it used as in the first example. But it seems rare, and I think the glossator would rather tend to use sicut in that sense (that's pretty much always the word used in those glosses for that kind of comparison).

Aurifex and Imber Ranae, do you have an opinion?

 

[Imber Ranae]

quam seems more likely to be a relative pronoun to me as well, but I don't know. These aren't written very clearly, are they?

 

[Pacifica]

Indeed sometimes I'd be happy if there could be more clarity... Do you also think that the implied object of ampliat is more likely to be the saints? And if yes, doesn't "increasing them" sound a bit weird and wouldn't there be a more appropriate word to use?

 

[Imber Ranae]

I'm not sure, to be honest. The idea of Christ putting the saints into a wine-press isn't one that's familiar to me.

 

[Pacifica]

I'm not sure, to be honest. The idea of Christ putting the saints into a wine-press isn't one that's familiar to me.

...

But on the other hand, . What am I going to do with this stuff? I guess I'll just take my latest versions and put a note saying it's doubtful. What better can I do?

 

[Imber Ranae]

...

But on the other hand, . What am I going to do with this stuff? I guess I'll just take my latest versions and put a note saying it's doubtful. What better can I do?

I assume you've seen Isaiah 63:3? That's where the imagery comes from, of course, but it doesn't seem to shed much light on the specific problems of interpretation here. There it's the nations being trampled as a punishment, not the saints as a tribulation.

 

[Pacifica]

No, I hadn't seen it, but unfortunately indeed it doesn't help.

An idea has just come to my mind concerning ampliat but I don't know how likely it is. I still say it in case...

II. Esp., judic. t. t., to delay judgment or decision, to adjourn, in order to make further investigation

... "while he delays the (last) judgment"...? I.e. he inflicts tribulation on the saints meanwhile, just to have a little fun and find out if they correctly submit to his will without complaining.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

What about the sequence of thought being paraphrased like this?

There are two possible interpretations of torcular:

1) mors, which is etc.;

2) tribulatio, in which the saints are treaded, which selfsame tribulatio he inflicted on Adam when he sinned and which he increased by extending it in his anger to Adam's offspring. [Yes, I'm aware that I'm fudging the grammar here, on the assumption that the writer was a bit muddled himself.]

But the saints become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put there, they're not vinum furoris [so 2) can't be right].

[Therefore, the conclusion to be supplied is that 1) is the correct interpretation.]

 

[Callaina]

I.e. he inflicts tribulation on the saints meanwhile, just to have a little fun and find out if they correctly submit to his will without complaining.

LOL, I can't shed any light on this at all, but you might like to know that I just burst out laughing

 

[Pacifica]

What about the sequence of thought being paraphrased like this?

There are two possible interpretations of torcular:

1) mors, which is etc.;

2) tribulatio, in which the saints are treaded, which selfsame tribulatio he inflicted on Adam when he sinned and which he increased by extending it in his anger to Adam's offspring. [Yes, I'm aware that I'm fudging the grammar here, on the assumption that the writer was a bit muddled himself.]

But the saints become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put there, they're not vinum furoris [so 2) can't be right].

[Therefore, the conclusion to be supplied is that 1) is the correct interpretation.]

I don't think so; they are just two interpretations, the wine being put in God's cellar belonging to the second one. Those glosses frequently give two (sometimes more) interpretations, without giving any "conclusion" as to which is the right one.

Now my big problem is what is meant by dum ampliat.

So now I'm with this horrible translation and note...

The wine press. I.e. death, which was inflicted by God angry on the first sinning man, was destroyed by him when he rose again. Or the wine press is tribulation, in which he treads the saints while he increases [...]1; which the Lord inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and he extended his fury to his offspring2; but they become wine to be put in God's cellar, and when they are put in it, they shall not be a wine of fury.

1 The interpretation of this passage is very doubtful. It could be "while he increases the saints" or "while he increases the tribulation which..."; or perhaps "while he delays the judgment" — or something else that I could not think of. The Latin is unclear to me (the verb used is polysemic and the glossator failed to express clearly its object) and all this is conjectural.] 2 Codex 24 and Rusch: "which God angry inflicted on Adam when he sinned, and extended, furious, to his offspring".

I feel like a zero.

 

[Aurifex]

I feel like a zero.

If there were still some reasonable suspicion that the Latin is intelligible, you might have cause, but it seems to me your sticking point is something that's undecipherable as it stands.
I've found a slightly different version here (see "VERS. 15"), but to me that's undecipherable too. I'd supply a short and dispassionate note on it, as you have done, and move on.

 

[Callaina]

I feel like a zero.

If the glossator couldn't be bothered to explain in an intelligible way what he meant, it's hardly your fault. Sometimes people just don't make sense I'm pretty sure your readers will understand that.

 

[Pacifica]

If there were still some reasonable suspicion that the Latin is intelligible, you might have cause, but it seems to me your sticking point is something that's undecipherable as it stands.
I've found a slightly different version here (see "VERS. 15"), but to me that's undecipherable too. I'd supply a short and dispassionate note on it, as you have done, and move on.

I had found that same version too on Google Books, but indeed it doesn't really help. Thanks for your comfort and advice anyway.

If the glossator couldn't be bothered to explain in an intelligible way what he meant, it's hardly your fault. Sometimes people just don't make sense I'm pretty sure your readers will understand that.

Thanks. I hope so...

And thanks to everyone who tried to help.

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Aurifex's version looks to me as though someone was trying to make sense out of the relative gibberish that was found in the other versions, or something like them. I like the way he piles on the genitives, though.

I can't see why Pacis Puella should blame herself, but I know the feeling. When I was young, I translated various late Latin texts for someone who was, for reasons I never discovered, researching into Pilate's wife. Now you probably know that there is exactly one sentence about her in the Bible (Matt. 27.19), but you may not be aware of the voluminous controversy that this sentence has generated. The only thing that sticks in my mind after all these years is how awful the Latin was, but at first I thought that it was my fault that the grammar often didn't seem to work. Then I asked people I knew who were actually studying some sort of late Latin, and they just shrugged and said that it was the sort of thing people wrote.

 

[Callaina]

No, I hadn't seen it, but unfortunately indeed it doesn't help.

An idea has just come to my mind concerning ampliat but I don't know how likely it is. I still say it in case...... "while he delays the (last) judgment"...? I.e. he inflicts tribulation on the saints meanwhile, just to have a little fun and find out if they correctly submit to his will without complaining.

I almost wonder whether the glossator could have something like the following sequence of thought in mind:

- Wine, in order to be any good, needs to age (i.e. in a wine cellar.)
- Why does God delay the last judgment? So that the saints (on whom he inflicts tribulation, symbolized by the winepress, just as it is inflicted upon all Adam's offspring, because of Adam's sin, etc.) can have a chance to "age", i.e. be transformed by their tribulation (which is inevitable, since they are descendants of Adam as all human beings are.)
(Re: dum ampliat, I'm also reminded of Revelation 10:6, ...Quia tempus non erit amplius -- which the glossator may have been thinking of/referring to re "waiting"/"delay" here)...
- As a result, the "wine" resulting from the tribulation of the saints -- unlike the "wine" resulting from the destruction of the wicked at the last judgement -- is not a wine of fury (as "unaged" wine would be) but rather a "good" wine, to be stored in God's wine cellar (i.e. heaven) rather than poured out in anger (as it was in Revelation 14:19-20, which uses similar imagery.)

LOL, sorry if this sounds stupid but it's just a guess, feel free to ignore if it seems ridiculously far-fetched

 

[Pacifica]

It doesn't sound stupid nor impossible.