Fac tibi mortales

Herzogvonbrunswick

Herzogvonbrunswick

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Fac tibi mortales pareant davidica radix
Cum vincas alios Virginitate mera
Tu patris es geniti tu mater flaminis alma
Defende ali nostrum virgo benigna genus.
O clemens genti faveas per saecula nostrae
Ut nomen valeat tollere ad astra tuum.

Dear colleagues, I was wondering if anyone might be able to assist in a translation of the poem above?
It is the text from a Marian motet by Nicolai Gombert (c. 1495 – c. 1560). Author is unknown, but possibly by a poet at the court of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. A likely candidate would be Johannes Secundus (Jan Everaerts 1511-1536) who was well known to Gombert.
Cheers.
 
Pacifica

Pacifica

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Hello,
Herzogvonbrunswick dixit:
Fac tibi mortales pareant davidica radix
Cum vincas alios Virginitate mera
Tu patris es geniti tu mater flaminis alma
Defende ali nostrum virgo benigna genus.
O clemens genti faveas per saecula nostrae
Ut nomen valeat tollere ad astra tuum.
Click to expand...
Is it really ali here? Because it's hard to make sense of it.
 
The Kenosha Kid

The Kenosha Kid

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My guess is 'mali', a rather Romance confusion of the Classical 'malo', perhaps aided by the 'de-' of 'defende' (as in Spanish 'líbranos del mal').

Here's my go:
Make it so mortals obey thee, o scion of David,
When thou should'st bind any of them with pure maidenhood.
Thou art nourishing mother of the father born, thou of the Spirit.
Defend from evil, favorable maid, our race.
O merciful, cherish our folk through the ages
That it may suffice to lift thy name unto the stars.
 
E

Etaoin Shrdlu

Guest

I suspect that the main reason people have been avoiding this one is that there must be something fundamentally wrong with the second couplet, one way or another. Either it's corrupt or it's nonsense.

I don't understand what alios refers to. KK's translation takes it as referring to the mortals who are being made to obey, but as it means 'other people', it would seem that it's anyone but them. I don't know where he gets his 'should'st' from; it's just circumstantial – 'since you have power over [whoever they are] by means of pure virginity'. I would also take nostra gens to be the subject of valeat: 'be good to our people so that they may raise your name to the stars'.
 
Laurentius

Laurentius

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The first verse is weird too, because the first syllable in pareant is long.
 
The Kenosha Kid

The Kenosha Kid

Active Member

Location:
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It didn't even occur to me that this is metered. I saw 'davidica' and dismissed it as Medieval schlock.
I said myself that 'mali' is non-Classical, or 'not grammatical', as you say.

Edit: I mistook 'vincas' for 'vincias'. Etaoin's 'circumstantial' subjunctive is fine with me.
 
Pacifica

Pacifica

grammaticissima

  • Aedilis
Location:
Belgium
Imperfacundus dixit:
Maybe it's an error for ale.
Click to expand...
That was my idea too. At any rate, it's the only thing I can think of that would make any sense; I was hoping it'd turn out that that was what was written; but now since it isn't, I can't be sure...
Etaoin Shrdlu dixit:
I don't understand what alios refers to.
Click to expand...
Just (all) other people than herself, I guess.
Etaoin Shrdlu dixit:
'since you have power over [whoever they are] by means of pure virginity'.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be more like "since you surpass others in pure virginity"?
Etaoin Shrdlu dixit:
I would also take nostra gens to be the subject of valeat: 'be good to our people so that they may raise your name to the stars'.
Click to expand...
I think that was also how KK interpreted it, but he treated "folk" as singular in an archaic fashion.

cherish our folk through the ages
That it (= our folk) may suffice to lift thy name unto the stars.
 
Pacifica

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
Belgium
The only way I can think of to wring some sort of sense out of ali would be to take it as a kind of infinitive of purpose, something like "defend our race so that it may be nourished", but that would be really weird grammar...
 
Laurentius

Laurentius

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I think it might be some "ac", perhaps.

Edit: Huh no, it sounds weird I think. No idea.
 
Pacifica

Pacifica

grammaticissima

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Location:
Belgium
You mean that ali would be a mistake for ac? Ac there would be a little strange, as there isn't really anything to which to link defende, but I guess it's possible.
 
Laurentius

Laurentius

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Location:
Lago Duria
Laurentius dixit:
Ac does, that's mostly why I proposed it. But it still doesn't make much sense I guess.
Click to expand...
But since there are other mistakes, I'd not be too worried about it scanning or not.
 
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